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My guest for Episode #329 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, a TEDx speaker, empathy and leadership expert, and author of The Empathic Leader: How EQ via Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit, Productivity, and Innovation.
Melissa shares the story of her “favorite mistake” — leaving her music and academic career after experiencing a toxic culture and institutional failure to protect her following an assault by a colleague. What began as heartbreak became the foundation for her life’s work: helping leaders build empathy, trust, and psychologically safe workplaces.
We discuss how empathy differs from sympathy and compassion, and why leaders often misunderstand empathy as weakness. Melissa explains why true empathy isn’t about being nice—it’s about being kind—and how self-empathy is the first step toward leading others effectively.
Her framework for self-empathy includes observing, reflecting, building awareness, and practicing compassion toward oneself. That self-understanding helps leaders respond constructively when mistakes happen—creating cultures where learning and accountability can thrive.
“Empathy isn’t soft. It’s kind.”
“Empathy doesn’t mean no boundaries—it means understanding through another’s perspective.”
Melissa also discusses findings from her doctoral research in interdisciplinary leadership at Creighton University and her viral TEDx Talk on self-empathy and self-judgment, which has drawn tens of thousands of views within days of release.
Questions and Topics:
- What was your favorite mistake?
- How did you decide to leave your music career?
- What was that transition like—gradual or sudden?
- How did the toxic culture and institutional response affect you?
- What role did empathy play in understanding and healing from that experience?
- How do you define empathy, and how is it different from sympathy or compassion?
- What’s the “dual root” model of empathy you mentioned?
- How does empathy connect to emotional intelligence (EQ)?
- How do you respond when leaders dismiss empathy as being “too soft”?
- What’s the difference between being nice and being kind as a leader?
- How can leaders use empathy while still holding people accountable?
- What are the first steps to practicing self-empathy?
- How can empathy help leaders respond constructively when mistakes happen?
- Why do people in power sometimes lose empathy?
- How can feedback or coaching help leaders stay empathetic?
- Can empathy be learned or strengthened over time?
- How can organizations prevent toxic cultures and encourage empathy at all levels?
- What did you learn about empathy through your doctoral research and TEDx Talk?
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- Full transcript
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Automated Transcript (May Contain Mistakes)
Introduction and Welcome
Mark Graban: Hi, welcome to My Favorite Mistake. I'm your host, Mark Graban. Our guest today is Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller. She is, among other things, a TEDx speaker, an empathy and leadership expert, and author of the book titled, The Empathic Leader. My mistake, not Empathetic, The Empathic Leader: How EQ Via Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit, Productivity, and Innovation.
She has degrees including a doctorate in education, interdisciplinary leadership from Creighton University and earlier, a doctorate in music from the University of Kansas. With more than 20 years of experience across different industries, Melissa helps leaders see that empathy isn't soft. It's a powerful driver of performance, innovation, and culture. Melissa, welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: I'm doing well, Mark, and thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Mark Graban: It's great to have you here. I apologize for my little slip-up on the title of the book. I don't necessarily believe in editing out my mistakes, but again, it's The Empathic Leader. And we're going to talk a lot in the second half of the episode about empathy and leadership.
Going to 11
Mark Graban: I know from the pre-call, if you remember chatting about this, Melissa, that I'm going to declare that I think today's episode is going to go to 11. Yes, we have a shared appreciation. This is not up to the level of your doctoral degree, but if you want to tell the audience what band and now movies that we have a shared appreciation for.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Oh, I'm all about Spinal Tap. Love Spinal Tap and turning it up to 11. Yes, absolutely. When we figured out we had that in common, I was like, “Oh, this is going to go well. This is going to be fun.”
Mark Graban: And I don't remember how we stumbled into that.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: I don't know, but I guess it was meant to be, 'cause otherwise how would it have come up?
Mark Graban: And as they say in the first movie, maybe related to how I stumbled across that, or we stumbled across it, “It's a fine line between stupid and…”
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Oh, “clever.”
Mark Graban: “It's a fine line between stupid and clever.” Yes. But you didn't study rock music at University of Kansas. What did you study?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: I studied French horn. I was a classical musician, so it was Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, the good old boys.
Mark Graban: But everybody can be a bit of a Tap-head, I guess, regardless.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Oh, yes. Well, there's one part in the movie where they're going through the under part of the theater… Do you remember it? And they're going through this maze and they're going and they're going, and I'm like, yes. That's like every theater I've ever been in. I can't tell you how many times I've been lost in these old vaudeville theaters where you just go around and around and you might end up in the pit, you might end up in the balcony, you might end up in the lobby. And that's one of my favorite scenes of all time.
Mark Graban: The common mistake of getting lost backstage, apparently.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes. And it's more common than maybe people let on.
Mark Graban: Well, alright, well that's good to know. We have that in common. Maybe at least somebody else listening does as well.
Melissa's “Favorite Mistake”: Leaving Music
Mark Graban: But instead of talking about backstage mistakes, maybe—I don't think we stole your story here—but the different things you've done and different aspects of your career. Melissa, what's your favorite mistake?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: I would never, ever have admitted this at the time, but—and even sometimes now—I think it was actually deciding to leave my music career.
Mark Graban: Hmm.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Which was… that was a tough decision. I was in my early forties when that happened. Even at the time, I was like, “Oh my God, what am I doing? I don't know how to do anything else. I don't know how to do anything but play French horn and tour and do that,” which takes a lot of time and a lot of practice. And on the other hand, it's not like there's a ton of openings for it.
Mark Graban: It is a rare talent, a rare skill to develop and be able to be a professional. Tell us more about that career and what… was it gradual or was there kind of a sudden realization that you were going to leave that career behind?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: There was definitely a catalyst, but it took a long time for me to come to terms with it. I was a performing musician first, and I loved it. I got to play with people like Ray Charles. I got to play with David Ogden Stiers. I got to meet people and go places and do things that I just wouldn't have otherwise. It's not like these people were in my sphere of influence.
The problem with being a performing musician is it's not always very stable. And I needed things like benefits and solid paychecks. I like food, shelter, and clothing. So I got my first doctorate and went to become a French horn professor.
The Catalyst and Toxic Academia
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: And unfortunately, within my very first term, I was assaulted by a colleague and things just unraveled over the next seven years. But because I was so caught up in trying to hang on to that position, I didn't handle things well. There was a series of mistakes before I got to the end of it all. And it took seven years before I finally had to say, “I have to walk away. I can't do this anymore.” And that's what happened.
But it took me a long time to actually come to terms with the fact that my mental health was worth more than me continuing in that field.
Mark Graban: Wow. Did others make mistakes at, let's say, an administration level in how they responded to this? Did they not believe you? Did they not hold the assaulter accountable?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Oh, yeah. He still has his job there. There was a lot of that. There was a lot of covering. The system itself was toxic. The people in the system, I think, were bound in this toxic system. ‘Cause that's actually how I started getting on this idea of empathy, because I felt like nobody wanted to hear it. Nobody wanted to understand, and I didn't understand. I didn't understand what was going on in the system that I couldn't seem to get my point across.
When I went to our boss, I was told that if I was going to be stirring up trouble like that, I was never going to get tenure, especially as a junior female faculty member. And then when I went to his boss, I was told, “If I didn't like it, I should just leave.” There's not a lot of French horn professorships. I mean, where was I going to go? And I mean, I went to everybody I could think of on campus.
Mark Graban: Mm-hmm.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: But I never reported it outside of campus because I was so concerned about hanging onto that job.
Mark Graban: Wow. And I guess not wanting to fall back on, “Well. If they fire me, there's probably a big lawsuit.” You weren't thinking… I mean, you were thinking, “I want to keep that teaching position,” because…
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Right.
Mark Graban: …the love of music, the love of teaching.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Exactly.
Mark Graban: Unfortunate thing to hear about the circumstances and the response.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yeah. The sad thing is that as I talk to more and more people, but women in particular, that have been in similar positions, it's kind of a standard response, unfortunately. And in academia in particular, you'd think these big, lofty, brilliant places would be more open to understanding about some of this, but they're almost worse because they work so hard to—I shouldn't say that. It's never everybody, but there are those that are more concerned about their reputation and holding tightly to that control. And unfortunately, it creates some really toxic situations.
Mark Graban: And that's unfortunate to hear. And it's… I mean, it's unfortunate to hear because, and I say this not in the disparaging way that some people use the term, but people say, “Well, universities are woke. They're supposed to look after women in particular, or believe women when they've been assaulted, not protect assaulters.” Like I'm saying, they should be quote-unquote “woke” in that way. And it's troubling to hear if there's still that kind of bias toward protecting those in power, protecting those who are more senior, protecting a man.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yeah. I've often actually said that, that if I were a man, I'd probably still be in music. So, but on the other hand, had it not happened, I wouldn't have gone down this path of trying to understand empathy and working to really figure out how leadership could use this so that something like that doesn't happen again. My goal has always been that if I can keep one person from not feeling so alone and not feeling like they're mowed under, and maybe even keep it from happening at all, then I'm doing the right things.
Mark Graban: And are you, in sharing your story in different ways, getting that direct feedback from other people about hearing that story helps them?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes. Yeah. In some ways, I'm glad that they feel comfortable enough to talk to me. In others, I'm sad that it happens at all. Right. But if we don't talk about it, it doesn't go away.
Mark Graban: Yeah. And protecting a professor with tenure, that's not the intent of tenure. It's really more about academic freedom than it is… I was about to say “get out of jail free card.” But it's avoiding… it's not meant to be carte blanche to avoid accountability for behavior.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes, that's correct.
Mark Graban: Yeah.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yeah. Should be.
Mark Graban: Right.
Finding a New Path: Empathy and Leadership
Mark Graban: How… I'm trying to think of a delicate way to transition a little bit. Deciding what to do next. You had said earlier that you struggled a little bit with what else to do in terms of finding another career. It sounds like the idea of going back to French horn performance was not appealing or the right direction. So finding a different path forward, how did you explore that?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: I did try to hang onto the French horn thing for a while. But then COVID happened right after, and a lot of the arts and ensembles, and people that had steady jobs, people that were working on like Broadway, had to suddenly find ways to get by. By the time we came out of that, whatever was left was just kind of gone.
So I wasn't really sure what to do. If I'm being honest, I really spun out for a while. My husband did healthcare consulting at that time, and I kind of jumped on with him and did some stuff with that. And I did some jobs here and there to try and just keep benefits and that sort of thing. ‘Cause that's just situation normal.
But the thing is, even as I'm working with people and I'm watching what's happening, and especially when we were doing the consulting and I was working with physicians and administrative leaders, I kept seeing the same kinds of mistakes coming up. I kept seeing the creation of these same toxic workplaces, and it always seemed to come back to a real disconnect between people, a lack of understanding and connection. And it was like, “Well, so what is this? What is this that's missing? What is it?”
And that's how I kind of came into the empathy side of things. And I was like, I don't necessarily know what I do well, but I know I student well. So I'm going to go get a second doctorate in this so I can throw myself into it and really figure it out. And ended up doing the one in interdisciplinary leadership. I'm not quite done yet. I'm working on the dissertation, but it is on empathy and leadership.
Mark Graban: Okay. So minor mistake on my part for misinterpreting, I think, the bio.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Hey, it's all good. This show's about mistakes, right?
Mark Graban: Yeah. I'm not going to edit that out either. Soon we'll get to call you “Doctor. Doctor.” That's a different musical reference.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Oh, I know that song though.
Mark Graban: And when it comes to healthcare, I've done a lot of consulting in healthcare organizations myself over the last 20 years and, sadly, there are far too many stories around… it's not only physicians or surgeons, and that's certainly not every… but there are too many cases where people get away with abusive behavior because they are either in a powerful position or they bring in a lot of revenue and reputation or all of the above.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes.
Mark Graban: And there are too many situations where bad behavior is excused in maybe similar ways to what you experienced. Some organizations, I think, are holding up for values and principles and saying, “Well, we may take a short-term hit in doing the right thing and asking somebody to leave and figure out how to make up for that.” But that's a real dilemma that some organizations or some leaders maybe choose the expedient path, or like you said, protecting their reputation.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yeah. Yeah. And you're right. It isn't just something that's in one industry or another. I think anywhere you have those power dynamics, it's going to have the propensity to creep in. I mean, there's studies that talk about how people with power or with money really can lack empathy because they haven't had to flex that muscle. When you're in those kind of positions, people are willing to cover for you. People are willing to protect that and unfortunately it becomes a chicken and egg kind of situation. Was this person like that, or did the system make it like that?
Mark Graban: Yeah, and there's a lot of… things get reinforced and things could spiral, I guess. We see people get away with things and they try more.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yeah. Because they can.
Mark Graban: Because, well, unfortunately, 'cause they can. We… everyone can fill in the blank of instances they're familiar with in the public realm or, unfortunately, in their own industry.
Defining Empathy (vs. Sympathy and Compassion)
Mark Graban: So let's talk about empathy and the book again. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller is titled The Empathic Leader: How EQ Via Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit, Productivity and Innovation. I got it right that time. Yes. I think. What is empathy? I would love to hear your definition, but let me also tee it up with a mistake I think people make of confusing empathy with sympathy.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Oh yeah. Empathy, sympathy, and compassion all get lumped together in a big ball a lot. Empathy… I think another mistake or myth that's out there a lot is that empathy is just about feeling. That “I feel what you feel,” and that's one kind of empathy. But throughout the course of empathy's evolution, there's actually been 43 different definitions.
Mark Graban: Interesting.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: So feelings are one, but they're not the only one. Really, what empathy is about is understanding and connection through perspective-taking. ‘Cause there's empathy… We have empathy sometimes with animals. Animals sometimes have empathy with each other. We can have a certain amount of empathy with nature. So it goes way beyond feelings.
Mark Graban: Yeah.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: And I think that's a mistake that gets made a lot.
Mark Graban: So, thinking… and I like to think of myself as an empathetic person, and I would like to think as a host in general, and today, that I respond to your story in an empathetic way. But to your point, that goes beyond saying, “Well, I feel bad for you that you went through that.” That's more of a sympathetic response.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes. So the real difference between empathy and sympathy… Empathy is when you take the perspective of the other person through their eyes. You understand. The definition I like with that is “It allows me to step out of my bubble and into yours.” Which means that I leave my bubble behind me. Sympathy, you're taking the perspective of the other person through your own eyes. So as soon as you do that, there's going to be some comparison and judgment because you're thinking of it in terms of what you know, instead of trying to do it in terms of, as much as you can, what they know, taking the perspective.
Mark Graban: So in this case of hearing what you went through, is it naturally more difficult for, let's say in this instance for me, a man, to be empathetic, to understand your perspective as a woman who went through that experience? I wouldn't pretend to say, “Oh, I could imagine what that was like.” I don't think I could. But I don't think that makes me unempathetic, right?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: No, not at all. For two reasons. The first is that when you're feeling empathy, you don't necessarily have to have empathy for the situation. You're having empathy for the perspective. So if I'm saying that in that I felt scared and I was frustrated by the system and I felt overwhelmed, I'm sure you know all of those feelings.
Mark Graban: Mm-hmm.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: I mean, I think we all do. So the empathy is there in being able to really understand those feelings between people. The other thing is that… we were saying there's more than one kind of empathy, and there's a theory that I buy into, it's called Dual Root Model of Empathy. And what it talks about is how there's really two that you need to have to really be empathetic. And one is emotional, which is the quick emotional “blah,” that kind of thing. But the second is cognitive empathy, which means “I logically understand what you're feeling. I just may not feel anything.”
So when you say, “I can imagine how you feel,” or “At least I can try to imagine how you feel,” that is empathy. A lot of people choose not to use that cognitive one 'cause it takes a little more effort. It's called dual root model because it actually hits the brain in two different ways. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, I feel you're absolutely empathetic to what was going on, even if you can't say, “I've ever been in that situation.”
Empathy, EQ, and Boundaries
Mark Graban: So there are, in the subtitle of the book, connections to EQ or Emotional Intelligence. Does somebody with… and I'm not going to claim that. Though I'd like to say I'm empathetic, I'm not going to claim to have the highest level of emotional intelligence. That's something else I'm not going to claim. But what are the connections? Does somebody with a higher EQ tend to be more empathetic? Are those connected or do they maybe tend to coexist even if they're not directly connected?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: They do. Now realize that with everything I'm saying, when you're dealing with behavioral stuff, you're going to have people that agree and disagree across the board. Because we're dealing with humans and feelings and behaviors, so there's just no black and white.
But if we go back to the first time emotional intelligence was really talked about, that would've been about '95 in Daniel Goleman's book on emotional intelligence. And in that book, he actually put empathy in as a kind of emotional intelligence. He had five broad categories and he said empathy was in the bucket.
If you think of emotional intelligence as a big tool bag, and it's got all these different tools in there, whether it's motivation or communication or whatever. And he put empathy in the tool bag. I actually think you have to have empathy first. I think empathy needs to come out of the tool bag, because if you don't understand and connect through perspective-taking first, you really can't effectively reach in that tool bag and know if you're going to grab a hammer or a chisel. Which I think is part of the reason why we've been talking about emotional intelligence. The first article was written in 1990, so we've been talking about this for 35 years and we still have trouble applying it consistently.
Mark Graban: Yeah. Well, and I imagine some people just poo-poo the idea or they make mistakes in what they think it means or they don't really dig to learn what it means. The same probably happens when it comes to thinking about empathy and leadership. I can only imagine the pushback of somebody saying, “Oh, well that means being soft. We can't be too empathetic. This is just business. We have to hold people accountable, blah, blah, blah.”
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes.
Mark Graban: How do you respond to that in a helpful way if somebody pushes back like that?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: That having empathy doesn't mean you don't have boundaries.
Mark Graban: Mm-hmm.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Empathy doesn't mean you're just being a pushover because you are still wanting to be able to see through the other person's perspective, but while giving them what they need. And so one of my favorite examples is talking about employee… sorry, I'm just…
Mark Graban: Those days, like performance evaluations?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Thank you. Oh my goodness, yes. Performance evaluations. You will have people that just kind of allow people to slide through because they want to seem like they're being nice, which, same thing, empathy isn't always nice.
Mark Graban: Mm-hmm.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Empathy is always kind. Yes. But it's not always nice. “Nice” is a social construct. It has more to do with greasing the wheels of society. “Kind” is where you're actually taking the other person's perspective into point of view and giving them what they need.
If you're in employee reviews and what that person really needs is to be told, “We want you to do well, and it's not going to happen with what you're doing.” Empathy would say, “I can see this through the other person's perspective. I understand that there's these other mitigating factors and if I want to be kind, I need to help them to either reach their potential or find a different place where they can reach their potential. And it may not be here.”
Mark Graban: Right. Yeah. It wouldn't be empathetic to say… I mean, maybe there's some extreme situations where you might cut somebody some slack of like, “Well, they're trying really hard and they were performing great, but they're going through some hard times.” So that's one thing. As opposed to somebody who just isn't a good fit for a job, no matter how hard they try. The organization maybe failed them by putting them into a situation that… it wouldn't be kind and constructive to just let them… “I don't want to deal with it. I don't want to make them feel bad.” And then boom, they get laid off at some point when you could have been more kind and constructive. And maybe if you couldn't coach them up in the role they were in, move them back into something that was perhaps a better fit where they could succeed.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Right. Yes. ‘Cause you're actually seeing it through their eyes that most people want to do well. They want to succeed.
Mark Graban: Yeah.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: They want to get better. And sometimes every one of us needs someone to be able to say, “We need to reassess this whole thing.” And that's not a failure necessarily of either person. It's more just creating a collaborative environment where both can thrive, even if that happens to be somewhere else.
Empathy and Power Dynamics
Mark Graban: Yeah. Wanted to go back a little bit, Melissa, something you were saying earlier, kind of talking about people in power. So we're talking about workplaces and that could be people who have risen through many levels of leadership over their career, they're in a position of formal power. How often do you think… I'm asking you to generalize, but is it inevitable that somebody becomes less empathetic? Is it likely?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: It really depends on the person. It seems to really depend on the amount of self-awareness.
Mark Graban: Which is an aspect of EQ again, right?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes. Yep. Understanding how your act… 'cause if we go back to the very first definition of EQ, it's understanding and controlling your emotions and understanding the emotions of others. So within that, with that self-awareness, it is understanding, “If I get triggered by this person and I trip off in a meeting, what's the result going to be? If I do give everybody a pass on their employee evaluations, then how are my actions influencing the world in the workplace?”
So I don't think it has to be that way. If we're actually working through self-awareness and understanding the effect that we have on the world around us.
Mark Graban: Yeah. And I imagine people that more naturally seek out and accept feedback from others would probably be less likely to fall down this path of losing their empathy. If somebody, whether they have a formal leadership coach or a mentor, or if they create an environment where they welcome feedback from their colleagues and their employees to call 'em out on something. Maybe that allows someone to course correct and not get too far off track.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yeah, absolutely. Having that outside influence come in that way, you're not in an echo chamber. You are not just getting it all, all the same thing back all the time. On the other hand, I was working with an organization not that long ago, and they had a stack of employee feedback forms. And they looked at it and they were like, “Oh, well that's sad.” And then they just set it aside. Getting the feedback isn't enough. What are you going to do with that feedback?
How to Become More Empathetic
Mark Graban: Sure. Are there ways that people in general or leaders can set out to become more empathetic?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes. So keeping in mind that empathy is understanding and connection through perspective-taking. What I try to teach my clients is that the first place to start is self-empathy. ‘Cause a lot of people miss that. And if you can't give empathy to yourself, how are you going to know how to give it to anybody else?
And you get people that are in leadership positions that are very ambitious. They're driven. If you think of Maslow's hierarchy, they're highly self-actualized. They're up there at the top. They've worked to get where they're at. And because of that, sometimes they lose that connection and understanding with themselves, which is why now we're dealing with burnout and we deal with substance abuse and we deal with families breaking up and that kind of thing.
So when I'm teaching self-empathy, I give four steps, but with the caveat that this is not a one-and-done. This is an iterative, you do it over and over and over kind of thing.
And the first step is self-observation. The idea is to step back, take a different perspective, and just watch yourself. Just take in data. I call it being “critical, not caring.” You're like a computer: you're taking in information, you're taking in data. You are not assigning judgment. You are not assigning emotion. ‘Cause a lot of these leaders understand that they're maybe not doing the best they can, and in comes imposter syndrome and judgment and the other things that can come up. So “critical, not caring,” just observing what's happening.
The next step is self-reflection. So you turn the lens inward and you try to figure out what your relation is to how these things happen. “Someone triggered me in a meeting, I completely came unhinged. Why?”
Mark Graban: What…
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: “What is it that pushed me to that point?” After you can reflect on this, you turn the lens out to self-awareness. “Okay, now I see what I did. How did I affect the world? Did I motivate my employees or did I just make them all scared of me? Are they going to be more or less likely to come to me with innovative ideas?” That sort of thing.
And then once you get to that point, then you can actually employ self-empathy, which may mean having self-compassion. “I let that person push my buttons and I shouldn't have, but it was a mistake.” And or self-forgiveness, or maybe it's a matter of figuring out what happened and asking for forgiveness. What happens within that state of self-empathy could be a lot of different things. But those are the kind of steps that we go through. You've got to understand your place in the world and how you affect others if you want to be able to actually take that perspective.
Mark Graban: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's really clear. I like the way you laid that out. And for people that want a deeper dive into self-compassion, Dr. Kristin Neff was a guest in this podcast series, and that's one of her areas of expertise with her writing and teaching. So I encourage people, check that out. Kristin Neff, again, is her name.
Empathy and Handling Mistakes
Mark Graban: And, Melissa, one other question I wanted to ask, because we talk in this podcast about learning from mistakes and leadership and the culture involved in that. How can leaders use empathy or be more empathetic when mistakes happen? Like when, say, somebody on their team makes a mistake. What would an empathic leader do that would lead to, your point, somebody being more likely to continue mentioning mistakes instead of shutting down and hiding them?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: I think it's important for leaders to understand that in every mistake is a learning opportunity. We grow and we learn, and that's how we get better. All of us together, both singly and together. But it takes empathy to be able to look at that and say, “Yeah, that's a learning opportunity. Let's figure it out together.” This was… I mean, if it's the kind of mistake where someone is doing the same thing over and over and they're not listening, that's a different situation. But where it's, “This was a one-off. Let's discuss it. Let's figure out how to not let this happen again. Let's actually grow and do better and be better.” And that goes for themselves too. “I made this mistake. This did not work. I'm really sorry for what happened, but let's go back and figure it out and be better together.”
Lack of Empathy (Enron, Theranos, Dark Triad)
Mark Graban: One other thing I wanted to ask… examples where, let's say a leader made a mistake where a lack of empathy in a situation maybe turned a small mistake or a small problem into something bigger.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Oh wow. Yeah, when you think about some of the big toxic leadership situations that have happened, whether it's in countries or governmental or even through history, the one that comes up with me a lot when I think about it is Enron. There was zero empathy, not only for their employees—they didn't care what happened to their employees—but not only that, their customers, their board, everybody. It didn't matter the fallout that was coming. They just had no perspective of how devastating this was going to be and to how many people.
Mark Graban: Yeah.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: We can actually think of a lot of examples of really bad leadership like that.
Mark Graban: Yeah. And I mean, I admire leaders who… I've met leaders of companies large and relatively small, who take very seriously that obligation of… you've started a company or you're running a company, how many people's lives… You talked earlier, kind of half-jokingly, but the serious point: we all want food, clothing, and shelter.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes.
Mark Graban: We all need that. There's a responsibility as leader. Is that… does that mean that leader is kind of high in the empathy scale to think about, “The decisions I make and our success as a company isn't just about, on one level, making more money and having reputation, but boy, people really rely on us, not just the paychecks and for the food on their table and for the roof over their head.” Some leaders probably don't think about that at all, but the ones who do, are they more empathetic?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Oh, I would say so. Yeah. Absolutely. Because they're taking that other perspective, which is why I would actually argue for a leader to really be empathetic, they want that business to thrive. They want… that doesn't… doing dirty things to get there, but… you know, a business's point goal is to bring in money and keep people employed and keep the product and service going. So wanting to do well, wanting to make that money, wanting to make sound business decisions is part of being empathetic to your people, 'cause you all want to thrive together.
Mark Graban: Yeah, and you know, it comes to that ethics piece. We talk about not doing things dirty just to make money. I mean, people who worked at Enron or Theranos, to think of a recent example, even if they didn't quote-unquote “do anything wrong,” and if they didn't go to jail, there's probably still a reputational hit.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Oh yeah. Did you read Bad Blood by John Carreyrou?
Mark Graban: I did, yeah.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Some of what was going on in Theranos, the lack of empathy was there very early on and just people were refusing to see it.
Mark Graban: Does an extreme lack of empathy equal words that people throw around like “sociopath”? Is zero empathy equal to sociopath? Is it just related?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes, it's exactly related. That's part of the definition for dark triad. And dark triad is sociopaths, psychopaths, Machiavellians, and narcissists. So yeah, I mean, the way people kind of throw words like “psychopath” or “narcissist” around, it doesn't… it isn't necessarily, by definition, what's going on in the dark triad, but part of dark triad is they have no empathy. So yeah, that's a big part of it.
Mark Graban: I mean, I think there has been research from people that know and use these terms properly, that unfortunately, executive ranks and certain professions tend to attract sociopaths, psychopaths, et cetera.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes.
Mark Graban: And they do a lot of harm.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes, high-level leadership, certain medical positions, and high levels in government. So they figure that it used to say about 5% of the population fell into the, like, actual diagnosable dark triad. Now they're saying it may be more like 7% to 8%, but in some of those high-level positions it can be like 20% to 25%.
Societal Trends in Empathy
Mark Graban: Yeah. And there's, I guess, that classic question of are the numbers of people increasing, or is it just more detected and recognized? I don't know. Are there generational or societal trends when it comes to empathy? Do young people tend… I don't know. Well, here, I'll just ask you as a question: are these generational or age-based differences when it comes to levels of empathy?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: It depends on who you ask, but there are several authors, like Jean Twenge, who definitely feel that it is generational, particularly because of technology and social media and the iPhone, because it creates “main character syndrome.”
Mark Graban: Hmm.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: There was a study that happened as well, and it's a longitudinal study, so it started in the seventies and it went to about 2008. And they were looking at incoming college students. What this study found was that within that time, the amount of empathy with that population went down by 40%. But they are continuing on with that study and they think now maybe they're seeing an upswing. I don't know.
Mark Graban: And large societal events or, you know, think back to things that can be traumatic to individuals and groups. Let's say, the COVID epidemic. I could see different groups of people going in one direction or the other. That experience might make somebody more empathetic in different ways or less so.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: It could go either way. I mean, for the first time, a lot of these organizations had to be empathetic because they didn't have a choice with everything that was going on and people having to go home and this… they had to be able to show empathy. But the flip side of that is all of a sudden we were all cloistered off. The Society for Human Resource Management had an article that said that workplace incivility is at the highest point that it's been like since they started looking at it. So, it's kind of, again, it's kind of both sides of it.
Conclusion and Wrap-up
Mark Graban: Mm-hmm. Well, it's really been great to explore empathy here today. Our guest again has been Melissa Robinson-Winemiller. You know, sincerely thank you for sharing your story in the first part of the episode. I imagine that's not an easy story to tell, but thank you for sharing your reflections and the spirit of helping others who would hear what you have to say. And the book again is titled The Empathic Leader: How EQ via Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit, Productivity and Innovation.
And, maybe as a final note, and I'll put the link in the show notes, your TEDx talk is now online, right?
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes. It just actually came out last Monday. So it's been about six months since I did it. And it talks about self-empathy and self-judgment, and we've got 33,000 views in eight days, which is exciting 'cause it means people want to hear more about it, which is what I want.
Mark Graban: Yeah. Well, I'm excited to check that out. I didn't… I just learned, to the listener, I say, I just learned right before we started recording. So I didn't have the chance to go check it out, but I will go do that. As soon as you send me the link, Melissa, thank you in advance and I will put that in the show notes for others. Encourage people to check that out. Link to Melissa's website and more. Again, check out the show notes.
So, Melissa, thank you again for a great episode. I'm trying to wedge in another Spinal Tap reference, but not thinking of one. Do you have one? No, I'm ending again awkwardly.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: No, I'll admit the best part of Spinal Tap for me was just watching some of the goofy stuff they did, whether it was getting stuck in one of the pods or the Stonehenge… or how they started out in the huge arenas and then by the end they're playing these tiny little houses.
Mark Graban: And it's not because their musical is less popular. I think the line is something like their appeal is just becoming “more highly selective.”
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes. As a French hornist, I can appreciate that.
Mark Graban: Well, Melissa, thank you again for being with us today.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Thank you so much for having me. This was my pleasure, Mark, and I appreciate it a lot.
Mark Graban: Thanks.