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My guest for Episode #52 of “the My Favorite Mistake” podcast is Heather Zumarraga, a work environment advisor, and President of Zuma Global LLC. She is a respected business commentator for channels including CNBC, Fox News, Fox Business News, and Newsmax — and she is now the author of the book The Man's Guide to Corporate Culture: A Practical Guide to the New Normal and Relating to Female Coworkers in the Modern Workplace.
In today's episode, Heather shares some reflections from her time working in the financial sector — why was she driven to be #1 in her role and what was the cost of that? We also talk a lot about workplace mistakes that men make… discussing topics such as:
- Is it a mistake to try to treat everybody equally — being “gender blind” versus recognizing gender?
- What are some mistakes that men make in attempts to be better allies?
- Mistakes that men make when hiring or leading women?
- Mistakes that men make working for women?
Having spent much of her career in testosterone-filled work environments, Heather wants to make sure that any male leader who wants to be part of the solution knows how to succeed and thrive in the inclusive modern workplace, as we go back to the office post-Covid. I think you'll enjoy the conversation.
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Automated Transcript (Likely Contain Mistakes)
Mark Graban (1s):
Episode 52, Heather Zumarraga, financial news commentator, and author of the book, The Man's Guide to Corporate Culture.
Heather Zumarraga (11s):
It was hard for me to admit that was it a mistake or a learning experience…
Mark Graban (21s):
I'm Mark Graban. This is My Favorite Mistake. In this podcast, you'll hear business leaders and other really interesting people talking about their favorite mistakes, because we all make mistakes, but what matters is learning from our mistakes instead of repeating them over and over again. So this is the place for honest reflection and conversation, personal growth and professional success. Visit our website at myfavoritemistakepodcast.com for show notes, links, and a chance to enter, to win a signed copy of Heather's book. Go to MarkGraban.com/mistake52, please subscribe, rate, and review, and now on with the show.
Mark Graban (1m 5s):
Well, hi, welcome to My Favorite Mistake. I'm Mark Graban Our guest today is Heather Zumarraga. You may recognize her from CNBC, Fox News, Fox Business News, other channels. She is a work environment advisor. So we're going to have a chance to talk about lessons and advice that she has. She's the president of Zuma Global LLC, and she's off of a book that was released in January called The Man's Guide to Corporate Culture. So before I tell you a little bit more about Heather, thank you for being here. How are you?
Heather Zumarraga (1m 40s):
Thanks for having me Mark. I'm good. It's good to be here.
Mark Graban (1m 43s):
Yeah, well, great. Well, there's a, I think is a very interesting topic and we'll, we'll, we'll talk about the book, Heather, as part of her background, she's worked in finance. She was the only woman out of about over, over only women of over a hundred salespeople at AIG. And despite that she became the number one salesperson. And I dunno, you probably say your, your bio says it's not despite of being a woman it's it's despite or was it a disadvantage in that environment?
Heather Zumarraga (2m 16s):
I think it actually, it helped. I don't think it hurt me. Yeah. All right.
Mark Graban (2m 20s):
Well, she's worked with thousands of financial advisors across the country, and that is, has been a very male dominated industry. So if anyone knows what and how men are thinking in the workplace, it's Heather, so we'll have a chance to, there, there are, I think, many, many interesting topics from the book that we'll touch on. And I don't know if your favorite mistake story is related to this, but Heather, when you're looking at your career and the different things you've done, what is your favorite mistake?
Heather Zumarraga (2m 50s):
Well, when you initially asked me that question, it, it was hard for me to admit that was it a mistake or a learning experience because based on your experience in all of these professional mistakes that you hear from, I'm sure you hear more often than not that these may have been looked at as mistakes at the time, but we've all learned from them. And I think mine would be that I had to be number one in sales, I was highly competitive. Like you said, in a male dominated work environment where now, as I've gotten older, I realize maybe that's not the most important thing in life.
Mark Graban (3m 32s):
So being number one, as opposed to being one of the top, or I imagine an environment like that, you had certain goals that you had to hit, but tell us a little more of the thought process of why you were driven beyond that, of, of wanting to be number one.
Heather Zumarraga (3m 49s):
Yeah. I think that at the time when I was just starting my career and I don't think this has to do with gender, I think actually I exhibited a lot of male traits by being so, so highly competitive in the workplace. And maybe also, because I felt like I had something to prove being so young and being a female in the business, there, there was something I recently read that it was an article in the wall street journal about saying that the greater, the idea that the pursuit of economic growth is a greater social, good than supporting moms who want to stay at home and raise kids may not be accurate.
Heather Zumarraga (4m 29s):
And you mentioned the book, it champions how far women have come and the workplace today, but at what expense, you know, what are you giving up? And at the time in my twenties, not much, you know, but the older you get when you have a family or you have kids, you're giving up a lot of other areas of your life that you're sacrificing for your career. And I don't want to say that's good or bad right or wrong. Do I view it as a mistake perhaps, but more as a learning experience because I don't think I would be where I am today if I wasn't highly competitive at that time, but looking back, and now that I've changed the way I go about things that is not my number one priority to be number one.
Mark Graban (5m 14s):
Yeah. And I mean, and that's really what this whole podcast is about, is turning mistakes into a learning opportunity or getting something valuable out of that. So thinking of what you're doing in this phase of your career, Heather, so it sounds like you're, you're, you're not driven to be the number one commentator or I don't, how would you gauge that success or what you're driving for now
Heather Zumarraga (5m 40s):
Always want to be your best. Right, right. Like you said, you know, at what cost I remember Michael Jordan, The Last Dance. It was the ESPN show. I don't know if you saw it, but it was great. And he was saying, I just, I want to win at all costs. And that was what so important to him. But at the end he was tearing up saying, you know, winning has a price and leadership has a price and he was, he was crying. And that was very heartfelt to me. And I think to others that can identify with being so competitive that at that time, that was not a mistake. He wouldn't be where he is today. If he wasn't striving to be number one, but is there a way that you can do your best without sacrificing it?
Heather Zumarraga (6m 26s):
An example for me personally, was my home life or, you know, my marriage or not spending time with my daughter or my dog, you know, but I guess when you're early on in your stages of a career, maybe that's not so bad because you don't have those things to lose, but then again, you're losing them maybe learning opportunities or relaxation or taking care of your body and working out or doing yoga, whatever it may be, just because you don't have a family doesn't mean that there's still a cost to having to be number one at all costs. And sometimes it makes people do things that can end up getting them in trouble, like losing their job. You do something illegal.
Heather Zumarraga (7m 6s):
Now I never did any of those things, you know, winning at all costs, but, or you cheat, which is in sports, we see that happen. And those are not the right moral, ethical, or right thing, you know, right. Things to do, I guess,
Mark Graban (7m 20s):
At a less severe example, there could be damage in terms of workplace relationships in, in striving to be number one at all legal, ethical, cause as you were, as you were pointing out, do people feel stepped on or you know, how, how competitive I've, I've not worked in this environment. You know, how competitive was that environment at, at AIG or in other finance sectors where like people were competing at the point of, I've got to elbow someone else aside to ascend to a number one position,
Heather Zumarraga (7m 57s):
Very, very, and I've watched numerous other podcasts that you've hosted with a lot of women and men that are actually financial advisors are in the same type of industry. And this whole structure. I don't know if it is today, but 10 years ago. And as recent as like a few years ago before Covid the whole pay structure even was set up like that. So, whereas let's say you're number two, you might get paid X amount. Let's say five basis points less than the number one guy, just because you're the first loser. You're number two.
Heather Zumarraga (8m 37s):
So it, it stems from leadership in the top. And I mean the rewards of having a highly competitive structure, but then you do have you pointed this out, maybe workplace relationships that suffer. Whereas I might've been friends with some of the guys that were at the top. I was like their little sister. I came on board and then boom, I started beating them and now they're getting paid less and they have a family to support and their compensation goes down because here comes little Heather and you know, I out paced them. I sold more than them. And so I get paid more, they get paid less. The whole structure is set up that way, where I get, if you are bringing in more business, you should be compensated that way.
Heather Zumarraga (9m 19s):
But to what extent, whereas if you're very close to whatever number two is doing, they structure it. So he gets paid a lot less than you do. So then the two of you end up not liking each other.
Mark Graban (9m 31s):
I think you, you frame that correctly, that's a systemic issue, you know, executives or whoever's designing the compensation structure. Do they want the side effects that come with the, the benefits or the, the, the, the upside, the, the, the good things that come out of the system design? Does that outweigh the problems or the dysfunctions that, that could pop up?
Heather Zumarraga (9m 56s):
Yeah, I think today the clear answer is no, it does not outweigh outweigh it back then. I don't know when I, when I was in it and amidst, it, it, it worked, but over the long run, actually, speaking of, I don't, I'm very grateful for the opportunities that I had with the company. One of the companies that's was SunAmerica that was owned by AIG. But to your point recently, just a few months ago, they were sold. So it was like a domino effect where there was all this pressure being put on by a new boss that came in which later led to me quitting. Cause I just said, this is too much I'm number one.
Heather Zumarraga (10m 37s):
And I was still having full heavyweight load on my shoulders. And I was like, then, you know, you just eventually give up and say, you can't do it. It's for some, and for others who stayed the end result was sales drastically declined. And the, the company was actually SunAmerica, which was a part of AIG was sold a few months ago, but I'm very grateful for the opportunity that I had there. And obviously the lessons that I've learned.
Mark Graban (11m 5s):
Yeah. And one other question, before we talk about the lessons related to let's say gender dynamics and leadership in the workplace, you came into AIG, this was in the aftermath of the financial crisis and the AIG bailout,
Heather Zumarraga (11m 21s):
Not part of selling mortgages to people or, or insuring the mortgages to people that shouldn't have had a mortgage in the first place. I had no part of that. This was after I was selling mutual funds. So I had nothing to do with the mortgage market in the collapse of AIG or the bailout in 2008. That's a good point. Yeah.
Mark Graban (11m 41s):
Yeah. Th th that that's a different, those are different mistakes with maybe a different guest someday, but those mistakes are more painful to talk about. So leading up to writing the book, and again, the title, the book is The Man's Guide to Corporate Culture. Thinking back to your time at AIG, from the position you were in, did they ever, do you feel like they treat, they manage you differently because you are a woman? Are there times where that maybe is appropriate or I think as, as a man, that's what I'm curious to read more of your book. I think, you know, in, in the modern business age, we said, well, we want to treat everybody equally, but what I'm curious, what your experiences back. Yeah.
Mark Graban (12m 21s):
Well, what, what does that mean? Or what should that mean from your perspective? Heather?
Heather Zumarraga (12m 25s):
Interesting, because a lot many women say, you know, I want equality. I want to be treated the same. I want an, and I get, you know, equal pay and the gender gap. I don't address that at all. And I completely understand that, but be careful what you wish for which I think might be your point because if a lot, I think I don't want to say all women are sensitive. I'm the first to say that I I'm very sensitive. You know, I cry a lot. I laugh a lot. I'm just an emotional person in general. There are, I think biological differences that I go over. I spoke with doctors and cognitive psychologists that from birth, regardless of if you identify man, woman or whatever, without opening a can of worms, women may be more sensitive than men.
Heather Zumarraga (13m 13s):
So when you say I want to be treated equally, well, that might mean when they ask the men and demand them to stay overtime for 12 hours. And you've got a baby at home and a bunch of household chores on your hand, will you ask to be treated just like the men they're not going to care or have any sympathy that you're pregnant or should they, if you ask for specific treatment and I know I might get, you know, some, some pushback or critique on that, but that's the truth. If you're asking for a true equality, then you really can't say you want to be treated different or spoken to in a different way than men talking to other men in the workplace.
Mark Graban (13m 52s):
Yeah. And you know, when you think of, you know, as we try to navigate in the workplace, not just gender, but race last month, I moderated a panel discussion where a question came up of, you know, should we, as, as, as black Americans, what was their view? Do they want people to be quote unquote colorblind? And, and the response from the panelists was pretty consistent of saying, well, I want you to see my color. I don't want you to treat me worse because of it. I'm not asking for better treatment, but I want you to, to see and honor, and respect, color, and race. Is there a similar dynamic, do you think in a workplace, where would you want people to be quote, unquote, gender blind or recognize gender and, and learn how to best manage in recognition?
Heather Zumarraga (14m 39s):
I, I think we should recognize gender, but not in a way that puts one above the other or highlighting our differences. I think we should highlight our similarities. And one way to do that, especially in the workplace, when you're hiring people, for example, there's a, a famous case, Howard versus, Heidi looking at resume, a man versus a woman, the same last name Roizen and they gave the, the people surveyed were given us were given a resume. The woman's name was Heidi. The exact same resume was also given to a different set of surveyors, as well as the same. And Howard was the man's name on the resume.
Heather Zumarraga (15m 19s):
Same exact resume seemed very differently. The respondents said that they saw Howard as a competitive person, and that was great. He was a leader in the field and very well liked now the same set of credentials and having powerful, a powerful network and friends, and, you know, climbing the career, the corporate career ladder. And they saw the woman, Heidi as being very selfish and egotistical, and nobody really liked her same exact resume. So I think a good idea to kind of like you said, make it gender neutral is to do things like that. Anonymize the, the resume or whoever your well, if you're evaluating someone, you can't really cover up their name.
Heather Zumarraga (16m 4s):
You have to know who they are. If you're giving like a performance critique or feedback, but when it comes to hiring people cover up their name and their gender. So you're not having any unconscious bias towards your hiring decisions.
Mark Graban (16m 16s):
Yeah. So, well, there are so many mistakes men can and do make in workplaces. Some of those are very obvious when you think of, you know, the me too movement. A lot of this happens in the media. I hope you've never been mistreated in, in, in media environments, but beyond the obvious mistakes, are, are there more subtle mistakes that men may cause this gray area of behavior that that's, that's more questionable than obviously repulsive,
Heather Zumarraga (16m 51s):
Absolutely. Especially today. And I think it's timely as we go back to the workplace post COVID and we're all vaccinated. I, I called this, you know, a new norm and the modern inclusive workplace. I mean, women have been working alongside men for a long time, but now they make up over 50% of the college educated workforce pre COVID. There were more women working than men. And I know we have a long ways to go in terms of gender parody and, and gender equality in the workplace. But I think, you know, big strides have been made. I think that's fair to say. And now more than ever, if you're a man and you're a good guy, like you said, there are clear lines that if you cross that and you're grabbing various body parts on a woman or giving, you know, making unwanted advances like trying to kiss her and she doesn't want to be kissed.
Heather Zumarraga (17m 42s):
Those are clear, big no-nos. But other areas I've had a lot of people recently asked me, Mark, like Heather, if I want to compliment a woman, for example, you know, you compliment a man maybe, but would you really compliment a man on his clothing choice? Maybe? Would you say, you know, Hey Mark, you look great in those suit pants maybe. But my advice was, if you wouldn't say to a man, don't say it to a woman. So I broke to the end of the statement. Like a lot of people say Heather, but I want to compliment a woman on how she looks because we're women. We do our hair, we do our makeup. I love people. Call them saying, I'm beautiful. My husband, I wish he'd do it more often. But my point is, don't do it in the workplace.
Heather Zumarraga (18m 25s):
I think that's a common mistake where good men, you know, like yourself or your viewer might think, Oh, well, I'm giving her a compliment. That's a nice thing to do. But if it's on her appearance and you work with her in the workplace, it can get you in trouble. And, and nine times out of 10, the woman probably will just say, thank you. But there might be that one woman that doesn't like you or another person that overhears it for some reason, likes to go tattle tale in his office, gossip. And the room goes and tells HR that you're commenting on women's appearance and boom, that's it. Even if you don't get fired reputation ruined and you know, red flag.
Mark Graban (19m 6s):
Yeah. So it seems like there's, that might distinguish if, if I were to say to a male coworker that I see at a hospital, like, wow, that tie, that's a really cool pattern. That's probably a very safe thing to say, to say, Hey, you, you look great in those pants. Now it seems to take in a different direction of like, well, that's getting various, that's more about the, you than it is about the clothing. And I could see where then similar things like that directed towards a woman would be much more risky or just, just,
Heather Zumarraga (19m 44s):
I mean, easy mistakes that as a man, you might make thinking they're perfectly fine and acceptable and maybe they should be, but in today's corporate culture, they may not. I wrote a few things in the book about co quotes. For example, if someone says nice outfit today, the woman might hear well, what about the other days? Or the way you look, you look very beautiful. The woman's like, is he trying to have sex with me? And then the right thing to say, I said, Oh, that's nice. Is it new? And the answer was bingo. He's acknowledging my existence, which was kind of what you were alluding to using the word instead of using the word.
Heather Zumarraga (20m 27s):
I, for example, the, the first line of defense against accidental and creeping, you remove the word. I, instead of saying, I like your outfit, you look nice. And so the woman or whoever, man, woman doesn't think she's doing it or just for you, you know, when you say, I like that, you say you did this or you like that. And that also, I think keeps you out of trouble.
Mark Graban (20m 50s):
Yeah. But you're right. There is that danger. If you, if you say it one day of almost sounds like a surprise. Well, you look nice today. Like that's kind of, it's sort of an insult if you're, I mean, so probably better to steer away all the other days, right? Yeah. So I think in your book, you touch on advice, you know, warnings from and about possible mistakes, things that we could or should do instead. Are there mistakes when let's say men are well-intended they're, they're trying to be an advocate for women or people use the word ally in the workplace or are there mistakes men sometimes make when they're trying to be a better ally and something's well-intended but maybe a little bit off.
Heather Zumarraga (21m 36s):
I think I would refer back to performance reviews and critique where some men, like you said, trying to be better. Allies might think they're doing someone a favor by giving them a better performance review to a make sure they don't themselves get in trouble. Or they might think she's. If I give her a negative review, she's going to report me to HR for gender discrimination, or maybe run to the bathroom in tears, which has happened before. So I would say, give fair performance reviews, regardless of gender, in terms of better being a better ally. A lot of recent cases in the media are about high-profile men bullying or intimidating.
Heather Zumarraga (22m 21s):
And while most men might be okay with that or not speak up or speak out about that and run to the media, we're seeing more and more women going and telling their story of a boss or a manager that exhibited bullying or intimidating type of behavior, because most men like to be blunt. And you would think there's a book, radical candor, which is just say whatever you're thinking. And there's some truth to that, but there's a right way to do that. But this is more about saying it and thinking about what you're saying, thinking how it's going to be interpreted by the recipient. There's very, very important in today's culture to protect yourself. So if you're going to give someone a critique, try constructive feedback, you're giving information while being supportive.
Heather Zumarraga (23m 7s):
For example, if someone missed a meeting, instead of saying, you know, you, you missed the meeting, where, where are you? I noticed you were absent from our meeting. You may have missed a lot of information. Let's get together after work today to, or at two o'clock to find a way that it doesn't happen again and go over what you missed. That way you're being supportive. You're not tearing anybody down. And another piece of advice, I gave us something called a true sandwich, where instead of something coming across as bullying or intimidating, if you have something negative to say, like the report was awful, the performance report or the project that worked on say, yeah, I liked the report on page 12 through 16, it's missing a lot of critical, critical or crucial details.
Heather Zumarraga (23m 54s):
Let's add those details and then it can be much better. You're bearing the negative it's true sandwich in between two positives. And that can also maybe help in the workplace.
Mark Graban (24m 4s):
Yeah. Heather, one thing you, you point out in the book survey results that say 60% of male managers feel uncomfortable working one-on-one with a female colleague. Why, why do you think that is? And what are the implications of that on, on how people should behave? Is that putting female employees at a disadvantage? If a man doesn't want to work or feels uncomfortable working one-on-one
Heather Zumarraga (24m 30s):
Well, it is many men, specifically financial advisors that I worked with that were my clients. And this was off the record, you know, that I told stories, but anonymously that they said, I will never hire a female assistant again. And I'm like, but why? And they're like, Oh, because this happened or she quit or because she had a baby became pregnant and then she didn't come back to work. Or it, it was that they felt like they were may always get in trouble because of her clothing choices. Or she wore miniskirts and high heels around the office and draw a lot of unwanted attention, but they can't comment.
Heather Zumarraga (25m 10s):
So it actually, this new norm has put women at a disadvantage and many different circumstances because the men, instead of, instead of saying, Oh yes, let's adapt this. Let's adapt to these changing norms in society. More women want to work, let's hire more women. They're saying, wait a minute. I hear about all this me too stuff. And all these people getting in trouble for bullying and intimidation and specifically it's usually men versus women. Let me just, not even hire a one. And, and that's their safest bet. It's like a risk management decision. You're right. So in some ways it can, it can be, it can hurt women in this case.
Mark Graban (25m 51s):
Are there mistakes that men make when hiring or leading women that, that you've re can you share an example? I know you cover this in the book
Heather Zumarraga (26m 4s):
When they're hiring women, I would say definitely anonymizing the resume. So that's, before your face to face, you cover up the names on the resume. So it's somewhat gender neutral. I would also say what you would think this doesn't have to be sad, but don't hire a woman unless you're in an appearance based business, like the media business or cosmetic industry, simply because she's young and attractive, it can become a nightmare. It often does unless, you know, there's another good reason of hire her outside of just because she's young and attractive, you hire the best person for the job, unless there's some mandate or quota based on you have to hire a woman or you have to hire this race or color or sex or whatever, you know, I think it's better to hire the best person for the job versus just because she's attractive young and pretty, that'll get you in trouble more often times than not.
Heather Zumarraga (26m 60s):
Mark Graban (27m 1s):
Yeah. And that, that seems like one of the more obvious mistakes and it probably still happens or you wouldn't have to touch on it in the book.
Heather Zumarraga (27m 9s):
Yeah. It happens like a lot of this stuff that, that seems obvious is in the book. There's a lot of complex, not so obvious issues, but it needs to be said, because I think, and especially as we're reentering the workplace, this is stuff that when we're working from home, like I'm not even physically with you right now. You know? So a lot of that stuff goes out the window. You don't even have to worry about until you're physically face-to-face with someone. And it's a whole new dynamic. Now going back, you have to wear pants when you go back to, I'm not saying you're not, but they're not like the exact same suit color pants is my blazer.
Mark Graban (27m 48s):
I'll I'll I'll well, and they do this on ESPN and I think they did this even on set — I'm wearing workout shorts. So I, I don't think, I don't think there's anything inappropriate about it. You can't see it on camera.
Heather Zumarraga (28m 1s):
Cool. Your jacket does not cover up your, your shorts because if your jacket covers your shorts or you're in a zoom meeting, teleworking or telecommuting, when you get up and go to the restroom or something, it looks like you're not wearing anything. So just make sure if you're wearing shorts that the blazer is short enough, that it doesn't cover up your shorts.
Mark Graban (28m 21s):
The key is turn the camera off. I guess this is the new workplace. If you're eating or if you're getting up, just turn the camera.
Heather Zumarraga (28m 29s):
You say it gets off nine times out of 10 and it's still running. So yeah.
Mark Graban (28m 37s):
So maybe one other question for you, Heather, are there mistakes? We think we you've talked a lot about when the man is the manager, when, when that's reversed, are there mistakes that men make when they are reporting to, or working for a woman as the leader?
Heather Zumarraga (28m 52s):
Yeah. There's chapter six and it's called surviving and thriving with a female boss. And sometimes I'm like, maybe I should have left that out because women aren't going to like that. They're going to think, well, what's so hard about working for me, but I'm trying, I mean, the book is for men, you know, the target audience is men to protect the good guys. In some people, 13% of people surveyed prefer a female boss. Actually the majority just over 50% didn't care. But then there was a significant percentage of people that prefer to work for a man. I actually prefer to work for a man. Now that's changing and shifting where most people don't really care, but that's why I included it because the majority of people still do like to work for a man.
Heather Zumarraga (29m 36s):
But if you are working for a woman, I think number one is that we do, and this is not a hundred percent true and going to be for everyone across the board, but communicate differently. Men expect women to communicate the same way they do and vice versa. But that's just not the case, for example, and this can extend outside of the workplace, women like myself when I'm talking and rambling on and on about something. Usually it's because I just want to vent. You know, I'm not looking for a solution, but research and studies have shown time and time again, when men are talking, it's usually because they're trying to solve their problem.
Heather Zumarraga (30m 18s):
They want to solve an issue and come up with a solution. It's not to vent. So if you work for a woman and she happens to be talking maybe more than you're used to working for a male boss, I would say, just keep in mind, don't take it personal. She may just be venting and not just looking for a solution. So don't put that burden on your shoulders. I meant that in the book
Mark Graban (30m 43s):
And that, that can be good advice in relationships, not just in the work.
Heather Zumarraga (30m 48s):
I, yeah, I've said that to my husband many times. Like, I'm just venting. I'm not asking for you to solve my problem. I just want you to listen. You know? So yeah.
Mark Graban (31m 1s):
Well, Heather there, thank you so much for being here with us today. Again, our guest has been Heather Zumarraga, her book available now is The Man's Guide to Corporate Culture. It's going to help coach men on how to be part of the solution in getting out of an environment and putting in the past and environment where women are having to deal with bias and harassment in male dominated workplaces, w we can figure out how to work, work together, not just firing the egregious examples, but let's create, I think, you know, a better, more respectful workplace culture for all. So Heather, thank you for your contributions to that. And thank you for being a guest with us today.
Heather Zumarraga (31m 41s):
Thanks for what you do. You really help a lot of people. So I appreciate being here.
Mark Graban (31m 45s):
Thanks again to Heather for being such a great guest today. Again, if you want to enter to win a free signed copy of her book, The Man's Guide to Corporate Culture, go to my website, MarkGraban/mistake52 in our next three episodes. We'll hear people talking about their favorite mistakes from sales and marketing from writing a book or not writing it. And we'll hear an anesthesiologist tell a story about a medical mistake he was exposed to during his training. Thanks for subscribing if you've already done so. So please rate and review us if you have the chance on your favorite app of choice.
Mark Graban (32m 27s):
And I hope this podcast inspires you to reflect on your own mistakes, how you can learn from them or turn them into a positive I've had listeners tell me they've started being more open and honest about and their work. And they're trying to create a workplace culture where it's safe to speak up about problems, cause that leads to more improvement and better business results. If you have feedback or a story to share, you can email me my favorite mistake firstname.lastname@example.org. And again, our website is myfavoritemistakepodcast.com