Marché Pleshette on Navigating Change Initiatives and Making Career Choices After College

Marché Pleshette on Navigating Change Initiatives and Making Career Choices After College


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My guest for Episode #201 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is Marché Pleshette. She is a skilled leadership coach who has been a FranklinCovey consultant since 2008. She’s a co-author of the book Change: How to Turn Uncertainty Into Opportunity, available April 18th, 2023.

As a keynote speaker and facilitator, Marché’s work focuses on effective communication, leadership, professional change and transitions, employee engagement and retention, and the organizational value of human capital. 

She has been the subject matter expert for The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People®  and serves on Franklincovey’s coaching team that ensures the quality of their world-class consultants. Before coming to FranklinCovey, Marché worked for a major health system in Atlanta as a manager of employee retention. She holds a B.A. in mass communications with a journalism focus, and is a certified coach.

In this episode, Marché tells her favorite mistake story about what happened on the first day of what was supposed to be her first job out of college. Was she an early example of “ghosting” an employer? Why did she have conflicted loyalties about wanting this job — but feeling pressure not to take it? We talk about her lessons learned and why having a champion inspired her to be a champion for others.

We also discuss change management and what she and her co-authors have learned about helping people through that process… there's a lot to learn from this episode!

Questions and Topics:

  • Do most major change initiatives fail? Is some of the data / numbers overblown?
  • Why/Where most change initiatives fail?
  • Minimizing the dip… Giving up in the dip?
  • “Move, minimize, wait, resist, and quit”
  • The technical part of change and the people part…
  • Not just logic and reasoning but emotions and feelings…
  • Why does change trigger our “fight or flight” instincts? 

Scroll down to find:

  • Video of the episode (no video this time)
  • Quotes
  • How to subscribe
  • Full transcript

Find Marché on social media:


"What I realize is sometimes we need a champion who believes in you." - Marché Pleshette
"So we always talk about going from monologue to dialogue. It's gotta be a bit of exchange..." - Marché Pleshette
"There are five common reactions to change: move, minimize, weight, resist, and quit.  - Marché Pleshette

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Automated Transcript (Likely Contains Mistakes)

Mark Graban (0s):
Episode 201, Marché Pleshette, leadership coach at Franklin Covey.

Marché Pleshette (6s):
Yes. So this is such an exciting question, and as I know, everybody probably says there are several.

Mark Graban (17s):
I'm Mark Graban. This is My Favorite Mistake. In this podcast, you'll hear business leaders and other really interesting people talking about their favorite mistakes because we all make mistakes. But what matters is learning from our mistakes instead of repeating them over and over again. So this is the place for honest reflection and conversation, personal growth and professional success. Visit our website at For more information about Marché, her book and more, look for a link in the show notes or go to As always, thanks for listening. And now on with the show.

Mark Graban (57s):
Well, welcome back to My Favorite Mistake. I'm Mark Graban, and we're joined today by Marché Pleshette. She's a skilled leadership coach who's been a FranklinCovey consultant since 2008. Marché is the author of the book, it's going to be available April 18th. It's titled, change How to Turn Uncertainty into Opportunity. So as a keynote speaker and a facilitator, Marché work focuses on things including effective communication, leadership, professional change, employee engagement and retention, and the organizational value of human capital. Marché has been subject matter expert for the seven habits of Highly Effective People, and she serves on FranklinCovey's coaching team that ensures the quality of their world class consultants.

Mark Graban (1m 43s):
So previously Marché worked in healthcare, a major health system in Atlanta as a manager of employee relations. She has a BA in mass communications with the focus in journalism, and she's a certified coach. So, Marché, welcome to the podcast. How are you?

Marché Pleshette (1m 59s):
I am great. Thank you so much, mark. I'm so happy to be here with you.

Mark Graban (2m 2s):
Yeah, I'm happy you're here. Congratulations on the almost release of the book. I hope people will go and check that out and, and it'll be available for pre-order and, and, and there's so much that we can talk about. We're gonna scratch the surface of the types of things that are covered there in the book. But before we talk about change more broadly, Marché, from the different things you've done in your career, I'm really curious what's your favorite mistake?

Marché Pleshette (2m 29s):
Yes. So this was such an exciting question, and as I know everybody probably says there are several. Yeah. But when I thought about it, I, I think I would say My Favorite Mistake was probably my most meaningful mistake that really kind of paved how I think about life and work and professionalism, period. And it was very early in my career. In fact, it was right out of school. I had applied for several jobs and there was one, well, my grandmother was very close to one of the executives at a major media company.

Marché Pleshette (3m 10s):
And of course, in addition to applying for different things, family members are always asking to look out, you know, is there anything that you know is possible for my daughter or granddaughter? And so her friend said, you know what, sure, I'll get her in. She could actually start, I've done, you know, had a couple of conversations. She can come next week and there's a receptionist position that, you know, she can start. And I was excited because it's an awesome company. And I'm thinking, you know, my initial thought was, this will be a foot in the door. And my father had very much sacrificed to pay for my college education, and he seemed somewhat offended and somewhat, he just thought so much of me, and he had such high hopes of his return on his investment, I would assume.

Marché Pleshette (4m 3s):
Yeah. That he said, Marché, you should not, this is not a good idea. Like, there's so much more, my degree was in journalism, so it was a perfect industry right. To, to start with. But he said, you know, I, I can't even believe that that was the best we can do. That's not you. You should not go to this job. And I, I esteemed my father so much and he didn't admonish me. Right. But there was so much conversation about it the entire weekend. I was so stressed about it. He said, you know, I'm really kind of offended. He didn't say this, but it was almost like he was kind of offended, right. That you, this is what you're gonna settle for a receptionist position and you're excited about this. So on that Monday morning, I didn't show up.

Marché Pleshette (4m 47s):
I know that's not good. And it was because, and I, you know, continued to look for a job. I looked for something in my field. And so I didn't take the position. Well, my grandmother's very dear friend, I would run into her periodically and I felt so ashamed, I felt so embarrassed, and I kind of dodged her. And literally one day we had a conversation and she said, you know, it was just a foot in the door. There's so much more that was possible. And it was just an opportunity. And I didn't even interview for, you know, for this position. It was just like, come get in and, you know, you'll see what happens. So one thing is I never, one lesson is like never be a no show.

Marché Pleshette (5m 32s):
It is just not good business, period. Yeah. Right. But that's, that's the least of them, of the lessons that I got out of this. I have a very good friend from college who also applied for a position. Nobody helped her, and she got an administrative support position. So she got a step in the door, but ends up at this point, she has retired from the same company as an executive. Oh, wow. And I always, and for it, it's been years and, you know, she was on a very fast trajectory right. From her entry position. And I always thought for decades, really, what would my fate have been that I started?

Marché Pleshette (6m 20s):
So, you know, I always, like, I always wondered, and there isn't, I'm not a person who was envious, but I always would look at her with this wonder of what would have become of me. Right. And so the lesson there is really, so, and I've learned like over the years, I am right where I'm supposed to be. I love what I do, and I feel like I am impactful in what I do. And one of the lessons that I learned from that, and it's so much, and then, we'll, you, we could talk more is things come up for you as I'm talking about this. But it's so interesting because what I realize and what I learned from that is everybody, my journey is my journey.

Marché Pleshette (7m 4s):
Everybody's journey is very different. And my journey is richer. My life now is richer for every point that I experienced. And honestly, I don't know that I would've had as much of a purposeful life, maybe one that was richer, like financially, I don't know. Yeah. But I don't know that in that path there, and as my friend, because she ends up, she ended up not really doing journalism. We were both in the journalism school, but it wasn't journalism. It was very much an executive administrative strategic role in one of their departments.

Marché Pleshette (7m 44s):
And that's not so much my passion. Right. People are my passion. And the last thing, cuz this is so multifaceted, but the last thing is my dad thought the world of me and he saw something in me. He was my biggest fan, and he saw something, he always saw something in me that I didn't always see in myself. And what I realize is sometimes we need a champion who believes in you. And it's not like probably I to do all over. I probably would've gone. And if it didn't work out quickly, I probably would've done something different.

Marché Pleshette (8m 26s):
Right. Right. But it, it, you know, I'm just so glad because, and he's not here anymore. He passed away and many years ago in 90. But he, he just saw, he always did see something in me. And I'm constantly reminded of the fact that you don't have to settle. It's a process. Unlike sometimes a, a lot of people today feel like instant, instantly we need instant gratification. And I don't think that life works that way, but we do need to know our value. So that's my biggest mistake. And you can see all of the wheels, all of the, the parts of that.

Mark Graban (9m 9s):
Oh gosh. Well, thank you, you know, for sharing that Marché and there's a, you know, a lot to talk about there. I mean Yeah. A favorite because there was learning and it stuck with you. I appreciate you, you know, sharing some of those reflections For sure. I mean, not, not to make light of this, but I mean, you know, when we talk about not showing up, I mean this, this was well before the term ghosting was ever used. You were an innovator in, or No, I mean, I don't, sorry to make light.

Marché Pleshette (9m 38s):
I might've been a little bit of a ghoster, but Yes.

Mark Graban (9m 43s):
Did they ever reach out to you? Or you just assume like they're Well, she didn't show up. Okay. Grumble, grumble. Find someone else. I

Marché Pleshette (9m 52s):
Probably, it was shameful because they probably called the executive. Right. Or whoever the executive had spoken to to say like, whoever you recommended or whoever was supposed to come today didn't come today. They did not reach out to me. I do remember that. Yeah. Nobody reached out to me. It was kind of like dodging and hiding Yeah. After that.

Mark Graban (10m 11s):
Yeah. I'm, I'm, and I'm, I'm, I'm guessing that wasn't ever repeated in terms of like, I mean there's some, like, there's a lesson there of like sticking to commitments and, and, and the impact, like you said, if someone else makes a recommendation or a referral, like I would feel terrible if, you know, somebody had recommended you to me, it'd be on the podcast and like, somehow I just didn't follow up. You know? I mean, yes, I would, I would, you know, the, you know, the person who made that connection, even if I didn't hear about it directly, they might say, well, I don't know if I'm gonna spend people. Yeah.

Marché Pleshette (10m 45s):
And, and you know, mark, as I said, some, everything that I just shared with you, really, this was the first job out of school. Right. This the first job opportunity, I guess I should say, out of school. It became a path for, and here's the thing, my daddy, my father was such an honorable man, right. But I was, it was the pressure of that that caused me not to show up. But I am a credible person and it is very, I pride myself on my ability to be trusted. Right. And to be a woman of my word, to do what is expected. And so, you know, that was one of the things, even just the, the shame of not being able to talk to my grandmother's friend.

Marché Pleshette (11m 29s):
Yeah. Right. It's just like I, I'm seeing her. I knew that it wasn't the right thing to do and I would be, I wouldn't like that if in my role, you know, someone doesn't show up or someone doesn't do what they're supposed to be. So it was a, it was a lesson honestly, in being a woman of my word, doing, seeing things through, even if you don't think that they're gonna be great.

Mark Graban (11m 50s):
Yeah. But you were caught between two strong desires, one to respect and honor or please your father and then on the other side through your grandmother, you know, that was a tough situation. But, you know, so I'm, I'm curious then, what, what, what was your first step then into what's been a very successful career through different paths? What, what, what ended up being the first job?

Marché Pleshette (12m 16s):
Yes. So it was at a nonprofit agency. And truthfully, the job was, I think it was community affairs. It was community affairs. And then it was followed by another job that was more in my field. And I, and I always wanted to do public relations early on. I, my degree is in journalism with a marketing minor at the time. My second job was director of public relations and it was at a nonprofit agency also. I was completely directing myself. But it was a great title and it was excellent experience. And then I went on to, I was a regional director at that nonprofit agency also of a particular region.

Marché Pleshette (13m 5s):
And then I worked in community relations at a major health system. And then I went on to be a manager of employee retention. And then my next step would be to be a delivery consultant and senior senior deliveries consultant, eventually here at FranklinCovey. So the path, it's so interesting because they say the average American actually has six professions in a lifetime. Not six jobs. Yeah. But six professions. And I think that I have that I'm also, I am also a coach. Yeah. A leadership executive coach as well. So,

Mark Graban (13m 44s):
Yeah. Well, I think there's a different expectation now compared to, you know, I think there, there, you know, my, my, my father's generation, there was more this expectation of, well, you pick a company and you might be there your whole career. Things happen. I mean, you know, but, you know, my dad worked for 40 years within General Motors, lots of different roles, different jobs. It was a big enough company. It was almost like he worked for different companies, but the, the paycheck had the same name on it. You know, not, not, not to, not to make this about me, but like, I, you know, I switched jobs a number of times early in my career. And, you know, I think just, it, it, it, there's a different expectation or I was on the cusp of that transition from that maybe being a problem to maybe that just being the way it is.

Mark Graban (14m 30s):
People now change jobs for a lot of reasons. Well, you know, sometimes, you know, look, if you're gonna get a promotion at a different company, good for you that that's happening more.

Marché Pleshette (14m 38s):
Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I think it's, honestly, I do think that it is a process of learning, understanding, finding the fit, and you know, as we'll talk about later it's changed and there's a process and you try different things, things in that process. Very ironically, mark, my father worked at General Motors

Mark Graban (14m 55s):
Also. Oh did he? That

Marché Pleshette (14m 56s):
Was his entire like professional life or work life. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Mark Graban (15m 4s):
So let's, I, I would love, well, so one other question I was gonna ask you, Marché, when you talked about your dad being a champion for you, I mean that, that's really important in, in the workplace as well to find a champion or imagine, you know, within your career you've had an opportunity to be a champion for others where you saw potential in in people.

Marché Pleshette (15m 25s):
Yes. Yes. My entire, in part it's who I am. And I have found myself in many roles where I've had the opportunity truly to champion people, really just to help them see the best in themselves. Probably my greatest experience in that have been too, and the last being the most rewarding. But when I was manager of employee retention at the health system that I mentioned, it was such an opportunity to help the organization, help leaders to see how can you be the best leader? Because leadership really is about developing other people.

Marché Pleshette (16m 8s):
It's not just about technical implementation of things. But in my role here at FranklinCovey, it has been the most rewarding experience in that I've had the opportunity to, to champion people. Like we're giving, we're helping organizations accomplish their goals through behavior change. And every time I deliver a course, I'm standing before, oftentimes they are leadership courses, sometimes they are with individual contributors. But it is helping them to understand that it is absolutely possible to be even greater than you are. And I, I never take for granted, I think people come to development courses already having a level, they're in their positions because they're doing something good, they're doing something right.

Marché Pleshette (16m 56s):
But there's this opportunity to be the best professional, the best person. Cuz we can't be the best professional if we personally, we're not trying to be as good as we can be personally. And it is so rewarding. And it, I can't tell you, it's like I've come across or I run into people oftentimes, and this is in my personal life as well as professionally and at the airports, you know, and when I revisit organizations who will say like, you said this something and because of that I did this and I'm just so appreciative. And it's like, I have no idea what I said, but I'm, I'm just grateful that I have the opportunity to interact with people and to champion them and to help them see the greatest in themselves.

Marché Pleshette (17m 39s):

Mark Graban (17m 40s):
Well, again, our guest is Marché Pleshette. Her upcoming book available April 18th is Change How to Turn Uncertainty into Opportunity. The, and I know within the book you, you, you sort of talk about why change initiatives can fail or where they go wrong. But, but first off, I wanna get your thoughts. I mean, there's numbers that you see thrown around of, you know, like that a high percentage of at least, you know, major change initiatives, you know, fail or don't live up to expectations. Is, is, is, I mean, does, does that kind of track with your experiences or observations, is some of that maybe overblown in terms of failure rates?

Marché Pleshette (18m 25s):
No, I totally believe it. McKenzie actually has done a study that says 20 perc 26% of change initiatives fail. And it's, it, and, and I, from my experience, it's like I don't always see things through to know that it's, it failed. But I could see why change initiatives take so long and I can see why they often do. I could see how that is true and how and where they often fail. I wanna make sure that I share. I'm not the only author of the book. There are three other colleagues. There's yeah, Curtis Bateman, Andy Cindrich, and Christie Phillips. So there, there are four of us who were co-authors of this.

Mark Graban (19m 5s):
My mistakes.

Marché Pleshette (19m 6s):
No, no, no worries. So here's the, here's the deal. There's this framework of, of change that if we can understand it, it just makes it easier for leaders and for individuals, individual contributors to understand how to navigate through the process. And so there is, there are these four zones that we talk about. It's the zone of status quo where things are just business as usual. We can do what we've been doing. There is the zone of disruption where things change. Maybe we knew it was coming, maybe we did not know it was coming. Maybe something happened that just snatched the rug from beneath us, but change happened.

Marché Pleshette (19m 46s):
And it doesn't matter if it's a change that was imposed upon us or one that we desire. There's always gonna be this dip in, in, there's gonna be a dip in our product productivity. And there's gonna be a, there's gonna be a, a cost to it, right? And then if we can get enough information and understand what's changing, why it's changing and what that means for me, then we can buy in enough to own trying. And we call that the point of decision, which is a pivotal point in the change process that gets us to the zone of adoption. The zone of adoption is where we're trying, and we talk about the squiggly line in the book.

Marché Pleshette (20m 28s):
It's not so much like, all right, so now I bought in, so we're gonna just do this and it's gonna happen. It doesn't happen quite that smoothly. It's a squiggly line because people try and it doesn't work what they're trying and they try again and it doesn't work. And that I'm sharing with you the process because that is where the change fails most often. Not when something changes, but when people try and it doesn't work. And so that's where we really do need our leaders. And we do need the champion that we talked about before, just in my own life. That's where we need the champion, typically the leader and each other and our teams to really help make things happen.

Marché Pleshette (21m 8s):
And if we can have the conversation, the dialogue, if we can really stay engaged in the process, we can work through it. And it gets us to a, the what we say is the zone of innovation where we made it. But it's not just about you mastered that change, it's about understanding. It's so much that might be possible that you would not have even thought about because of the change. And I mean, it's just so much detail in the process. I've just given you the very high level of it. But yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the process that we understand is the predictable pattern of change that really helps. Yeah.

Mark Graban (21m 45s):
And, and that dip you're describing as something I've seen illustrated. I know, you know, we're, we're, we're talking about it and I kind of saw you trying the chart with your finger. I mean, I've seen that illustration and, and and, and that model. And I've lived through some of that where sometimes or quite often, you know, performance will dip, will will get worse. We'll dip before it gets better. I mean, we can maybe try to minimize the depth Yeah. Yes. Of the dip to, to to, to get us back into progress.

Marché Pleshette (22m 16s):
That's, that's the, that's the goal. To make that dip shallower and shorter. Cuz the longer we stay and the deeper we go, the more it's costing organizations, the more it's crossing us. And so that's, that's the real goal. Like it requires some real conversation. As leaders, we can't just throw out to someone, you know, and say like, all right, convey that. Here's a change. Make it happen. You know, one of the things that we know is leaders, particularly like senior leaders, executives, they understand strategy. They are very analytical. They have thought about, this is a great idea, we're actually trying to grow, we're changing how we do this.

Marché Pleshette (22m 59s):
Maybe it's sales, maybe whatever, it happens to me, maybe it's restructuring in whatever way it may be. But they have thought this through and then they share with the, you know, the, the middle level leader. Like, this is what we're doing, make it happen. But it can't happen outside of our people making it happen. Right. So the only way we can make that dip shorter and shallower is through a lot of interaction. We can't just convey, always say we have to communicate. And there's a strategy to this. And it's also understanding this is very much about people. Like, so the framework is helpful, but it's not, this is what's so unique about the book.

Marché Pleshette (23m 41s):
And this is what's so unique about what we're sharing. It's not just about the framework, it's about people understanding their reactions. And it's actually five very common reactions that we talk through and help leaders and, you know, everybody understand.

Mark Graban (23m 58s):
So yeah, I wanna talk a little bit about some of those different reactions. And, and some of it just seems, you know, very innate, but when, you know, you, you, you talk about the difference between conveying information, which sounds, you know, you're describing very unidirectional top down versus communication collaboration. Yes. It, it seems like that change often fails because there could be assumptions that, that that come with that top-down communication of I assumed under people understood why this was important. I under, I assume they under they agreed that it was a priority. I assumed they agreed that this problem we identified as even solvable.

Mark Graban (24m 41s):
I mean, it seemed like there's a lot of ways things get off track if we're not getting feedback, if we're not listening to people adjusting perhaps.

Marché Pleshette (24m 50s):
Yes. Yes. There's so much that can be lost. And gi zone disruption is, is really dizzy and it is so important. We can't just throw out to our team members, this is the change, make it happen. Right. So when I say we must communicate, not just convey, it really is helping our team members as leaders, we've gotta get as much information as we can so that we can convey to them as much as possible because it's dizzy. Right. And as people, there's so many reactions. People are afraid, they are annoyed, they're angry.

Marché Pleshette (25m 30s):
Right? It's so much that's happening. And as leaders, it's important for us to acknowledge that. It's important for us to ask how are they feeling? What ideas are they, do they have, you know, is this working because, you know, just in terms, do they see how it can work? Where is it that we're trying to go? What we're thinking is going to be the path to getting there. But also let them know that we're open to whatever it is that they need. So we always talk about, or we talk about in the book, going from monologue to dialogue. It's gotta be a bit of exchange there. Because the, the thing is, as long as people are there in the zone of disruption, they're uneasy.

Marché Pleshette (26m 11s):
They're not as productive, not even on the things that are going to continue. Right. And here's the other thing. I mentioned that there are five common reactions to change and you said you wanted to know a little bit more about that. So there's move, minimize, weight, resist, and quit. And there are, there are advantages and disadvantages, honestly, to each of those. It's not, and that is important for us to understand as leaders, what, what does that mean? What, you know, what do each of them mean? And what are, because there are some things that aren't so great and there's some things that are, it's important for us to have conversation with them and allow them to know that we see value even in what might not be ready to go.

Marché Pleshette (27m 5s):
To be honest with you, with move, we think that we want people who are ready to go with change, but sometimes people can be too fast, too quick to change, and they don't get all of the information and they're ready to roll on something. That's not quite what we were talking about. Right. So, you know, that's one of the cons to that and minimizing, you know, it's important for us to find out what is, have the conversation what, because the person who minimizes sometimes doesn't even believe that this is really gonna happen. And sometimes they will, they will change, but as little as necessary and we need, you know, all in.

Marché Pleshette (27m 45s):
Yeah. But sometimes it's helpful. They can tell you why they are resisting or why they're not all in. There's weight. And that is, and I'll have to tell you, that was my bent for many years. It's like I am a very compliant person, even as a leader. I have historically been, but I had a tendency to look to see how is this impacting others so that I can understand and orient myself on how to move forward. And so the person who's waiting is very observant. They're looking at what they feel is working and what might not be. So there's something, you know, to that the person who resists might be very vocal with, I don't like this, this is not a good idea and this is why it's not.

Marché Pleshette (28m 30s):
And so, and it, they're worth listening to and, and all of them. And, and then quit. Of course, quit is the last thing. The person who quits, honestly, that's not the worst thing in the world. Sometimes a person feels like, this isn't what I signed up for and I don't wanna do this. The only thing that, that is absolutely not the best is sometimes people quit and they stay.

Mark Graban (28m 56s):

Marché Pleshette (28m 57s):
And they just don't engage in the

Mark Graban (28m 58s):
Change. Yeah. Right. We've gone from ghosting to quiet, quitting in terms of Yes, but

Marché Pleshette (29m 7s):
I'm here, but I'm not.

Mark Graban (29m 8s):
Yeah. It seemed like, you know, like that middle ground is maybe the most difficult to navigate when you talk about minimizing or waiting. We may be getting, if you will, lip service from people or they may be like, there's this phrase, we're gonna slow walk that. Yeah. So like, I think especially in let's say command to control workplaces when oh yeah, an executive gives a mandate, oh, we'll we'll look into that very, people may hope we can just sort of wait this out and we're quote unquote working on it. And then we'll get some other mandate and we can put this one aside.

Marché Pleshette (29m 45s):
Yes. And here's the deal. As long as people are thinking that they don't indulge. And that's the part where we hope, and, and I may have said this already, but it, but I think about it so much, it's like our, our leaders know how, how to do a lot. One of the things that I realize in my work is that we know how to do the technical part. A lot of times the people part isn't mastering. And that is what's so unique about this. And it's understanding, not judging any of those responses, but understanding those responses and understanding that different team members may be in different places.

Marché Pleshette (30m 30s):
And understanding how, how, where they are in that framework that I mentioned before. And really having conversations. Sometimes we talk about intersection of values, helping them to understand how what matters most to them might align with what we're trying to do. But it requires conversation. It requires patience, it requires great, really good communication skills. And that's how we navigate people through the process. In the book, there's a really fun and a really good parable that the book starts with. And it's, it's based on the, a book that we have done, like prior to this, that's called Who Rocked the Boat.

Marché Pleshette (31m 14s):
And it is about a cargo ship that has a crew on it, and they're trying to deliver their goods, but they, the captain sees and hears a waterfall coming up and kind of tries to prepare everybody for this. Like, we're about to, we're about to hit a waterfall and this everything is gonna, you know, be a mess. And all of the reactions that I've just shared, you have a team member who, and we actually have labeled them, which in reality we don't think it's a good idea to label people. But the, they're the characters in the, in the, in the parable. There's move, there's minimize, there's weight, there's resist, there's quit, and then there's quit.

Marché Pleshette (31m 55s):
Somebody jumps ship and then somebody stays on and they're just kind of like naysayers. Yeah. And they fall over, you know, they go over the waterfall and they're on the beach, you know, totally off track from where they were going. And there's this reset to get this, the, the captain reminds them, we still have this destination that we've gotta get to. Nobody knows that we're here. How do we get there? And they scale the cliff and they, they break the boat down the ship and then they rescale the cliff. And it's not easy necessarily, but he's using everybody's creativity to make that happen. And they get to the top of the cliff and they're back, you know, they could do things like they had done with the ship, like put it back together, but they create something totally different, which is an airboat, right?

Marché Pleshette (32m 44s):
Like who, what is that? How have you ever seen that? But that's where the innovation is. And it's such a fun parable that gives any leader the opportunity to, it's short, it gives anybody, and it's a part of the book I mentioned that it comes from a, we, we peeled it out with a different book also, but it's part of this book. But it gives any leader the opportunity to just share it with their team members. And it's such good discussion in our preparing for the book. We tested this with teams and family members and friends and it w it just, it really resonated well with everybody cuz people were going like, oh my gosh, I'm, I'm quit or I'm resist and this is how I, and this is.

Marché Pleshette (33m 24s):
And so it it's just a fun, grounded, insightful book with great instructions and great tips and jewels of wisdom on how do we navigate Yeah. Change. Because it's, it's the one thing that is a constant, it is going to keep happening, right? Yep. And the most competitive organizations have gotta figure out how to master this.

Mark Graban (33m 51s):
Yeah. Yeah. Marché, you, you make so many great points here. I mean the, the need to not just view the technical side of change or the logical or the rational side of change, but the emotional side. How do we feel about the change? And look as, as an engineer with an MBA like you, you know, the bias and the education is very much towards the rational and thinking side. But my goodness in the workplace, like respecting people means understanding that, look, we, we all have our emotional reactions to things. And like you said, that's not bad. That just is.

Marché Pleshette (34m 27s):
It just is.

Mark Graban (34m 28s):
And, and, and so the final question I was gonna ask you though, in terms of this type of reaction, like what, this is human nature, right? The fight or flight instinct, it's an animal, animal instinct even. But wait, why, why does change, even if rationally positive, then still tend to trigger the fight or flight instinct in the way we react?

Marché Pleshette (34m 49s):
Yes. Because you just said it, it is because it is, it is a psychological, even a neurological thing that happens when something switches from what we are used to. And it helps us in some ways. But we, if we can understand that, understand ourselves, understand other people, it because it's human. It that you just mentioned, it's like even, you know, I always, I jokingly say this, but it's such a good reality for us to consider even if we were to win a new car, wow, you got this new electric car I'll go with, it's still going to be this learning curve.

Marché Pleshette (35m 35s):
It's still going to be, oh my gosh, we, we might be excited and that's great, but it's still gonna be a little bit of a slowdown, a little bit of, hold on, I wanna do this, but I gotta get myself together. I've gotta learn how this works. I've gotta get some charger for, you know, it's, it's things that happen. It can feel inconvenient, it could feel rewarding, but sometimes we're disconnected to where what the benefit is gonna be. Cuz it may not be immediate.

Mark Graban (36m 5s):
There, there, there may be a dip in your satisfaction with driving because you're not, you're uncomfortable with this new driving experience. But then if you can work through that curve, then you can get to the point where it's better, right?

Marché Pleshette (36m 18s):
Yes, yes. Yeah.

Mark Graban (36m 21s):
But I, I think having an understanding and an appreciation for that and, and, and being able to navigate, you know, you made so many great points here about, you know, paraphrasing around the need for listening and empathy and conversation. I, I love the way you stated that from monologue to dialogue. So I thank you a lot of, for being a guest. A lot of great dialogue with you here today, Marché. Thank

Marché Pleshette (36m 48s):
You. Thank you so much, Mark. It's been great talking to you.

Mark Graban (36m 52s):
Yeah, well thank you. So again, our guest has been Marché Pleshette from FranklinCovey. She is, and, and sorry for the mistake upfront, she part of a team effort. She's one of the four co-authors of the book Change How to Turn Uncertainty into Opportunity Available April 18th. There will be a link in the show notes for pre-ordering that I'll link to Marché's LinkedIn profile, FranklinCovey website if you wanna connect with her or the great team at FranklinCovey. So again, Marché, this has been a real treat. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. You

Marché Pleshette (37m 28s):
Take care.

Mark Graban (37m 29s):
Well, thanks again to Marché Pleshette for being such a great guest today. To learn more about her, to pre-order her book, you can look for links in the show notes or go to As always, I want to thank you for listening. I hope this podcast inspires you to reflect on your own mistakes, how you can learn from them or turn them into a positive. I've had listeners tell me they started being more open and honest about mistakes in their work, and they're trying to create a workplace culture where it's safe to speak up about problems because that leads to more improvement and better business results. If you have feedback or a story to share, you can email me

Mark Graban (38m 10s):
And again, our website is

Mark Graban is an internationally-recognized consultant, author, and professional speaker who has worked in healthcare, manufacturing, and startups. Mark's upcoming book is The Mistakes That Make Us. His latest book is Measures of Success: React Less, Lead Better, Improve More. He is author of the Shingo Award-winning books Lean Hospitals and Healthcare Kaizen, as well as The Executive Guide to Healthcare Kaizen. He also published the anthology Practicing Lean that benefits the Louise H. Batz Patient Safety Foundation, where Mark is a board member. Mark is also a Senior Advisor to the technology company KaiNexus.