Interviewing Poorly and Failing To Get The Job, Twice! Terry McDougall

Interviewing Poorly and Failing To Get The Job, Twice! Terry McDougall

My guest for Episode #44 of “the My Favorite Mistake” podcast is Terry McDougall. She is an executive and career coach, speaker and best-selling author of Winning the Game of Work: Career Happiness and Success on Your Own Terms.

After 30 years of corporate business experience, 15 of which were in senior managerial roles, Terry chose to become a coach, in 2017. She also has a new podcast called “Marketing Mambo.

In today's episode, Terry tells a “favorite mistake” story about a time she applied for an internal leadership position, but she “bombed” the interview after being in the interim role. After a hiring misstep, the position was again posted and she again failed to get the job.

“It was all on me — I wasn't prepared.”

Terry McDougall

While it was painful, Terry calls it a “favorite” mistake because she learned so much through those experiences. She identified gaps in her interviewing skills and has worked on that — and it helps her now help others more effectively.

“Not getting back up is the failure.”

Terry McDougall

We also talk about panel interviews and how those are different in a Zoom area, along with other reflections and lessons on job hunting and career advancement. Terry also tells a story about the benefits of “small tests of change” before doing a big launch of something.

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"For most people, their biggest weakness is their biggest strength overused. And a lot of times when you overuse a strength, it gets you into trouble."

"The key part of [turning a mistake into something positive] was me having the courage to really face my deficits and do something about it."

"I guess my lesson there is that really, there are no mistakes. There are just opportunities to learn and improve."

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Automated Transcript (Likely Contain Mistakes)

Mark Graban (1s):
Episode 44, Terry McDougall, executive and career coach, author of Winning the Game of Work.

Terry McDougall (9s):
My favorite mistake was actually a bit painful, but it's probably one that I learned the most from…

Mark Graban (21s):
I'm Mark Graban. This is My Favorite Mistake. In this podcast, you'll hear business leaders and other really interesting people talking about their favorite mistakes because we all make mistakes, but what matters is learning from our mistakes instead of repeating them over and over again. So this is the place for honest reflection and conversation, personal growth and professional success. Visit our website at for show notes and a chance to win a copy of Terry's book. Go to And now on with the show we're joined today by Terry McDougall, she is an executive and career coach.

Mark Graban (1m 5s):
She's a speaker, she's the best author of the book, for those of you on YouTube, you can see it over her shoulder. It's called Winning the Game of Work: Career Happiness and Success in Your Own Terms. So I'll tell you a little bit more about Terry… After 30 years of corporate business experience, 15 of which were in senior management roles. Terry chose to become a coach in 2017. So Terry, congratulations, I guess it's been a few years in now, but thank you for being a guest here on the podcast.

Terry McDougall (1m 36s):
Mark. Thank you for inviting me. I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Mark Graban (1m 40s):
Yeah, me too. And I also want to mention that Terry has a relatively new podcast called Marketing Mambo. So I encourage you to go check that out. So I hope that's been a fun experience hosting.

Terry McDougall (1m 51s):
Oh, it's been a blast. I absolutely love it. So fun.

Mark Graban (1m 55s):
Well, good. I'll put a link to that in the show notes and I hope everyone will check that out. So we have all kinds of things we can talk about today, but you know, first things first is, as I know, you're ready to do, Terry, what would you say is your favorite mistake?

Terry McDougall (2m 11s):
My favorite mistake. Okay. My favorite mistake was it's actually a bit painful, but it's probably one that I learned the most from when I was in my, I guess two jobs ago. I worked in a marketing department for the head of marketing for a particular business. And I guess you could call me sort of his right hand person. You know, I was sort of the first person that he'd go to if he had new projects and you know, I worked really closely with him. Well, he left the company and I had worked at that company for about eight years and I thought, you know, I think I'm ready for that next step up. I'm going to apply for his position.

Terry McDougall (2m 52s):
And it actually took them a few months before they even posted for it. And in that time I had sort of informally stepped up and was sort of, you know, leading planning efforts, interfacing with people in the business. So sort of the defacto leader of the group when it came time to interview, I, I sailed through the first round of interviews with, or the first round with HR pretty easily. The second round of interviews was a panel interview with I worked in a large bank. So marketing was pretty big. And the panel interview was with basically some people in other areas of marketing and I knew them, but I didn't work with them on a daily basis.

Terry McDougall (3m 35s):
And I also did not do anything special to prepare for this interview. I just thought, okay, it's I work here already. I've already stepped up. I'm doing the job. You know, I, I thought that I was the era parents. Well, I got into that panel interview and been a long time, probably like eight years since I had interviewed. And I went in and I bombed, I got the flop sweats. I was tripping over my words. And I think part of it is also a panel interview can that can be tough, right? It just feels like you're sort of on, on the interrogation line. But needless to say, I did not advance in, you know, beyond that.

Terry McDougall (4m 15s):
And that hurt because I thought, you know, gosh, I know this stuff. Even the guy who was running it before me relied on me for a lot of the ideas and everything, that of things that we did well, I decided that, okay, even though I'm eliminated from that, obviously I had a big gap here that I wasn't presenting myself confidently. I had some gaps in my interview skills. So it, and it's funny to think about this now, because this was probably, I don't know, 15, 17 years ago, something like that. And I remember like scratching my head and saying, I think there's something called like a career coach or something like that. And, and this was even before Google.

Terry McDougall (4m 56s):
So I think I went on Yahoo and I was like, okay, career coach, let's see there happened to be one in my town. I called her. And at the time I thought her rate was really high, but I decided I, and it's funny now because it's like a fraction of what I charge, but I invested in myself. I spent, you know, a while working with her or she really helped me recognize what I was going to need to do to move up to that next level. You're I talk about myself confidently, think about how I add value and how I can talk about that. Mentally promote myself to the next level. I actually went out and went on a shopping spree and sort of did a little make-over so that I would be viewed as somebody who was ready for that next level.

Terry McDougall (5m 43s):
Well, it ends up that the, the person that they eventually offered that job to turn it down. And I guess they just didn't have another candidate. That was a good second candidate. So they started the process all over again. And interestingly enough, I applied again and I, I didn't know if I would be, you know, selected to interview, but I was, and it ended up that I went all the way through the process. It got down to me and it an external candidate. I felt very confident. I can still remember sitting in the boardroom with the CEO of our division and his, you know, two highest level executives there.

Terry McDougall (6m 26s):
So again, it was the panel interview, but I felt really comfortable. And unfortunately I didn't get the offer. The other guy, the external candidate got the offer. I think sometimes, you know, it's, it's, you know, they knew me and I think they thought he was going to bring something new and fresh to the role. And of course that hurt to be a two time loser,

Mark Graban (6m 51s):
Sorry to interrupt. But where were you still acting in that interim role?

Terry McDougall (6m 55s):
There was nobody, there was nobody to do it. You know, I was the senior most person in the department. And so I was, I was doing it, but of course it hurt. And then of course, well, the day that I found out that I didn't get the job, I went out to lunch. And when I came back, there was a voicemail on my phone from a recruiter for a role that eventually I got the offer for. But during this time I got another job offer and I had another interview that was active with another, another bank. And so by, you know, say three, three months later, I had two job offers, actively interviewing for a third.

Terry McDougall (7m 42s):
I took one of the job offers, it moved me here to Chicago for a job that was much better than the one that I missed out on twice. And so, you know, I guess my lesson there is that really, there's no mistakes. There's just opportunities to learn and improve. And certainly I'm, I'm so proud of myself that I didn't crawl into a cave and lick my wounds and say, I guess I'm just not management material.

Mark Graban (8m 10s):
No. Right, right. Oh my gosh. So, I mean, it sounds like there were lessons that you were able to take away from, from each of those rounds. I mean, you mentioned there were some trying to analyze why you, you know, I hate to use the word bombs, but that's, that's

Terry McDougall (8m 28s):
He had bomb the first, the first round, I guess the second one. I, I think I, I did really well actually getting to the finals was, was good. It's just, I think they wanted something different.

Mark Graban (8m 43s):
Yeah. So that first time, if I remember right, you said that you maybe took it for granted, you hadn't interviewed for while you were in the role, you didn't prep and I guess that's something you would caution people against. I would say.

Terry McDougall (8m 57s):
Yeah. I mean, when I'm working with people, you know, cause I'm a career coach. So I actually tell people that there's really only three ways to add value, either help the company make money, save money, or reduce risk. And had I taken that, it used that as a lens and looked at myself and said, okay, what are the biggest accomplishments that I've done in the time I've been in this role? And I had been prepared to, to sort of like almost put myself on the table, like a product and talk about myself, you know, in a more objective way that would have served me very well. But I went in saying, saying, well, I know myself, you know, I can talk about what I've done, but I couldn't talk about it in a way that was persuasive and demonstrated the value that I had added.

Terry McDougall (9m 50s):
I could just say, Oh yeah, I did this stuff. But I think some of the, one of the lessons that I, I learned and it w was, was that even though I knew these people, they were in different parts of marketing, they really didn't know in any depth what we did in that department that I was in. And I wasn't really prepared to talk about that in a, you know, sort of in a business case type way, you know? And I, I realize now that they probably looked at me and said, yeah, you know, we liked Terry she's, she's nice. And she seems smart, but you know, I didn't demonstrate it when I went into that interview.

Terry McDougall (10m 32s):
And I definitely took it for granted that people would see me the same way I took, I saw myself instead of realizing, you know, I had to go in and make the case.

Mark Graban (10m 44s):
Yeah. Now, you know, I want to ask maybe a question related to coaching that you're doing now, this, this question's outside of my expertise, so I'll ask it. And I hope it's not a bad thing to ask, but you see news stories about the rule of gender, as much as you can generalize. Yeah. Women talking, you know, being less willing to talk themselves up or the dynamic of, of men generally speaking, are less afraid to apply for a job that they're quote unquote unqualified for what I mean, you know, between your experience or for what you saw in the corporate world or people you coach with now, can you generalize like that? Or what, what sort of trends or differences do you see?

Terry McDougall (11m 27s):
Well, I mean, it is a generalization, but I definitely see that women feel like they've got to do more things very well. And a lot of times men are a little bit more goal oriented in terms of like, okay, well, what's the most important thing that I need to work on. And I'm going to sort of put the blinders on and focus on that rather than, you know, and I I'll speak for myself. I'm definitely from this, but, you know, looking at the, to do list and feeling like I have to check everything off the, to do list rather than, you know, sort of triaging things and saying, what's the most important thing I need to do. And, and frankly, what can I delegate to other people?

Mark Graban (12m 14s):
Yeah. Yeah. And there's yeah. And when you think about, you know, interviewing process, the last time I went through a traditional interviewing process for a full-time job was over 15 years ago, myself and I, you know, thinking of the interview panel experience, that's one form of an unpleasant. I remember, I think it was a summer internship in college at a company where I went through it must've been eight or nine sequential interviews. And how was exhausted saying the same of answering this?

Terry McDougall (12m 46s):
You probably just got to a point where you're like, did I tell you this already? I've done that so many times today. Yeah.

Mark Graban (12m 51s):
A different kind of difficult, but I mean, maybe, you know, it kind of goes back to a question around what should be the role of a panel interview or is that, is you're coaching people, you know, is, is that happening just as often today or companies taking different approaches?

Terry McDougall (13m 9s):
I am not seeing, I mean, occasionally companies will do a panel interview, but in the people that I work with, you know, most, most of the time it's a one-on-one interview. What you described is not uncommon where they may have a few sequential interviews. I have had those days where I, one time I flew to California for an interview when I was getting out of business school. And, you know, I think I left the East coast at like 5:30 or six o'clock in the morning and, and went to San Francisco. And they, I had to interview with like seven people sequentially and I didn't do well. And w because I was exhausted and I, you know, when I look back at that one, I'm like, I should have insisted that they send me out the night before, you know, so that I was really rested, but I just didn't, you know, I, I didn't really know that I could do that.

Mark Graban (14m 9s):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think of nowadays between the pandemic or just evolution of technology, there's probably the risk of a zoom panel. It's, it's easy to do technically, whether that's the best approach for interviewing and evaluating, who knows, but what, what are your thoughts on that?

Terry McDougall (14m 29s):
Well, I think that part of the reason why companies would, you know, why they use a panel interview to begin with, but also it's easy to do it with zoom is that it saves time. You've got more than one person seeing exactly the same thing, because certainly I've, you know, been in, I was in the corporate world for a long time. And sometimes, you know, you'd have people interviewing a candidate at different times. And every once in a while, you'd end up with radically different perspectives on the candidate. Like one person saying, I think we found our person and I love them. And the other person's saying, Oh my gosh, please do not hire them. And I'm like, what, what was the big difference?

Terry McDougall (15m 11s):
Right. And sometimes it is open to interpretation in terms of like, Oh, well, they didn't mean it that way. Or, you know, I took that as humor or whatever, where somebody else might've said, gosh, that was, you know, they answered that, that wrong. So I think that that can be, that can be one reason why companies use it. There's actually something else that's happening these days, which it's becoming much more and more common, which is asynchronous interviewing where don't say that, that means that they send you a link with maybe there's somebody on video, not live recorded, asking you the interview. And then you go onto a system and you record the answer to it.

Terry McDougall (15m 55s):
And then it gets sent back and they just, on their own time or reviewing people's recorded answers to the interview questions and making a decision about who they want to advance to the next level, which, you know, it's definitely becoming less and less high touch in some, in some situations I think in those cases, it's probably more aware they have to hire a high volume of people.

Terry McDougall (17m 15s):
If you, you know, do something that feels foolish or make, you know, you make a mistake, it's really what you do after that, that matters. And I'd say some of the biggest even most humiliating things that have happened to me in my life have actually eventually yielded the best things, you know, in the story that I told. I think the, the key part of that was me having the courage to really face my deficits and do something about it. It hurt, I highly of myself and I did not, I didn't like looking at myself like a loser and I, especially, you know, from an ego standpoint, I still had to see those people that I, you know, had the block sweats with.

Mark Graban (18m 5s):
Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it's good. I don't hear you blaming anybody that, you know, blaming the format of the panel or, or whatever else…

Terry McDougall (18m 15s):
I wasn't prepared, but I also, you know, I hadn't been tested in a long time and I, I wasn't, I mean, a lot of times when I'm working with clients right now, there'll be like, I haven't interviewed in 20 years. Right. And like, how do you even test that? You know, how do you practice? I actually have tips for how people can practice if you want them.

Mark Graban (18m 40s):
Sure. No, go ahead. If you don't mind sharing that. Yeah.

Terry McDougall (18m 43s):
Yeah. I, I tell people to think back over their career or their last role and come up with 10 or 12 success stories and to write them out, what was the problem? What was the action? What was the result and how did you measure it and practice them, get them down. So you can say I'm in, you know, 90 seconds and, and those are your answers to pretty much anything that you get asked, you know, you might want to think like, okay, well, what's one where they're going to ask me, like, what's your biggest weakness, right? Because if you come up with 10 or 12 stories, and then you can usually spin them to answer just about any behavioral interview question, which is, which are the ones that are like, tell me about a time when.

Terry McDougall (19m 29s):
Right. Right. And what I think that preparing in that way does, is that it turns it from feeling like an interrogation where you're sitting there like, Oh my gosh, what are they going to ask me? I'm getting my hands are getting sweaty too. I have a presentation about myself and I'm ready no matter what, they asked me to present something that I've done, that puts me in a good light. So it, it really changes the mindset. And, you know, you can talk about yourself in a way that's, you're less self-conscious I think usually.

Mark Graban (20m 7s):
Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. So when you talk about getting back up after the interview, you got back up, you continue doing the job, you got back up again with some help and coaching to get back up and, and try it again. But you know, I'm glad that, I mean, having those experiences, how does that help you as, as a coach? I mean, does it help you relate to people? Whether, you know, they might be intimidated and think, Oh, well, my coach is perfect. She's never made any mistakes.

Terry McDougall (20m 37s):
Oh yeah. I mean, in my book and in my coaching, I tell people all that. I mean, if they want to hear it, I don't like, say, Hey, let me tell you about the time, but I will ask them, you know, I had something similar happened. Would you like to hear it? And you know, I think that when you've got a story and it has a happy ending, it can be very inspiring for people because then they realize like, Oh, I'm just in the middle of the story. I'm not at the end of my, or not at the end of this part of the story. And there's, there's a saying, I don't know if you've heard this one, like when you're going through hell, keep going, it's kind of that same thing. Like, you might be in a painful place, but you're in a transition from one place to another.

Terry McDougall (21m 21s):
And if it feels uncomfortable there, don't just stay there, keep going, get out of it to the next thing. And it's probably gonna be challenging and uncomfortable and so forth, but, you know, you'll learn, you'll become stronger because of that. And you know, when the new guy started, who was, you know, that was awkward too, because he was my competition. He came in and started picking my brain about all of the ideas that I had for marketing. And that, you know, I was very cooperative. I'm I'm professional, but deep down inside, it lit a flame. I was like, yeah, I was, I was mad.

Terry McDougall (22m 2s):
Cause I'm like, okay, you get the job and you get the, you know, the extra pay and bonus and all that kind of stuff. And I, and you're going to take my ideas and I mean, it's his prerogative as the head of the department for sure. But it really lit a flame in me that like, you're ready, like go and get it girl. And I did. And I did.

Mark Graban (22m 26s):
You did. Yeah. You mentioned that that biggest weakness job interview question that, that, that, that gets answered in cliched ways that I'm sure we've all heard of, but you know, I try to make sure this podcast is not the same sort of thing of, you know, I try to coach guests in advance, at least through some of them that it's like, please don't have a story where my favorite mistake is. I was just so darn successful. I mean, there could be some element that then that led to, you know, some version of hell, but the point is not talking about the hell, it's the redemption story. So I like what you said about you're in the middle of the story, the ending of it, you know, hopefully it has a happy ending and that's right.

Mark Graban (23m 7s):
And I've gotten feedback listeners of this podcast series. So well for being a show about mistakes and ends up being uplifting, I'm like, well, yeah, I hope so.

Terry McDougall (23m 14s):
Right. Because if it was just like, you know, I didn't get the job and still it's 20 years later and I'm still doing the same old job that I, I, I just decided that I don't deserve, you know, advancement. Yeah. That wouldn't be a very exciting podcast. So you know, that you brought up one of the biggest, I think, I don't know issues that people have or like fears that they have. Like, what if they, me that like, what's your biggest weakness? I've got something that I advise people if you'd like to hear it.

Mark Graban (23m 55s):

Terry McDougall (23m 57s):
I have recognized that for most people, their biggest weakness is their biggest strength overused. And a lot of times when you overuse a strength, it gets you into trouble. And so I recommend to people like, think about a time when, you know, maybe you're very detail oriented, right. And you were so detailed oriented that you couldn't let that report go so that it was finished on time. So you tell the story of like, okay, I'm very detail oriented. And you know, this happened, this is, you know, say my boss came to me and, you know, had to, had to like, kind of rescue me so that we could get the report done.

Terry McDougall (24m 39s):
So what I've learned since then is that when I get a new project, I'll look and say like, where might I need help? Or, and then I'll, I'll line up that help to like, maybe help me proofread or review so that I can finish it on time. And since that time I've never been late with a report. So, because nobody wants you to tell on yourself or air your dirty laundry, when, when they ask that question, they want to know that you have self-awareness, that you can take feedback that you're a big enough person to, you know, to recognize that you're not perfect. And that's okay.

Terry McDougall (25m 19s):
I mean, anybody that thinks they're perfect, there might be some problems, right. Because nobody is

Mark Graban (25m 27s):
Somebody who says they're the best at everything. And they know the most about everything that wears thin very quickly.

Terry McDougall (25m 32s):
Yeah, exactly. That's probably not going to be a good, very, very good collaborative team environment if you've got Superman on your team.

Mark Graban (25m 40s):
Right. But what you described there, I mean that there was a bit of a story arc again, where there was a redemption story, learning how to deal with it or mitigate it. Yeah.

Terry McDougall (25m 51s):
Yeah. And, you know, in interviews, you're just telling stories, right. People like stories too. And I think sometimes people think like, Oh, well, they're, they're here to analyze me. No. Like, and if you, if you've ever interviewed people, the people that come in and are confident and they've got good stories and they wrap it up and put a bow on it at the end, you love them. You know, the people that are like scratching their head. I can't remember if it was 10% or 15% increase in revenue. I could get you the report on that. You're like, Ugh,

Mark Graban (26m 25s):
Just say 12 and a half.

Terry McDougall (26m 31s):
Yeah, exactly!.

Mark Graban (26m 31s):
So one other question I wanted to ask you, Terry, you know, on the, on this idea of mitigating risk or mitigating mistakes, when we, we had a chance to talk in our, in our pre-call, we kind of discovered a view around, you know, preventing big mistakes by doing small tests of change. Can you share some of your thoughts on that for us?

Terry McDougall (26m 54s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think any time that you've got something, you know, any project or any decision that you need to make, it's always important to look at both the upside and the potential downside and, and, and really seriously look at the downside. I mean, I think some of the biggest debacles we've seen in the economy have been when nobody thought that the stock market could go down or something like that. Right. Like, so

Mark Graban (27m 22s):
It's impossible for housing values To come down.

Terry McDougall (27m 24s):
Exactly. Exactly. Or that Nobody's ever going to default on a mortgage. Right. You've got to look at the possibilities of both. And if there, if there are some things that you don't know about, you know, there's some factors that you just don't have a line of sight into sometimes, you know, the whole idea. I think it's like basically design thinking, right? Like, okay, let's take what we do know. And let's run a smaller experiment and see what we learn by doing this. And a lot of times, you know, maybe it goes great. And then you have the confidence to, you know, go ahead and roll out a larger campaign or whatever it is that you're doing, or you learn something that's going to allow you to make that next iteration more effective.

Mark Graban (28m 13s):
And I imagine in the context of, let's say a large bank or a large company that has sites all across the country, there are test markets and pilots and small tests of change for the state. It can be either validating or learning and making it better before a rollout.

Terry McDougall (28m 33s):
Yeah. And we did talk about that the other day about a software platform rollout that was going to have a lot of integration with kind of the service aspect that was delivered in the local branches. And the leadership is very keen on this and they, they wanted to do a broad rollout, but I was very nervous about that. You know, the interface between what we did with the software and how the people in the branches were going to kind of deliver on their part of it. I had my doubts. And so I, I found a market where the market leader was, was amenable to doing what needed to be done, to run the test.

Terry McDougall (29m 19s):
And, you know, much as I, I feared there were some breakdowns in sort of like the integration between what we did on the technology and what the human part did. And I was, I was extremely thankful that I did that. I went small, but I did a beta test because had I gone large, it would have been a pretty epic fail. And I lost my job. It was hard though, because there was a lot of pressure. There was a lot of pressure because they were only looking at the upside. And I was like, ah, there's a possibility of downside here. And I saw, you know, I saw what they were

Mark Graban (30m 0s):
Yeah. As much as I value. And we talk about learning from mistakes. That doesn't mean all mistakes are equally good. So I've been fortunate to have been taught, you know, this idea of, you know, it's better to make small mistakes than it is to make the big one that the small mistakes create learning that prevent the big, huge catastrophe.

Terry McDougall (30m 22s):
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, that's why we do test markets and focus groups, or, you know, find, you know, a lot of times whenever I was trying to do something new within the organization, I would find somebody who was, you know, an ally or an who got it. Right. Who understood what I was trying to do, because I knew that they would be a closer collaborator than if I tried to roll it out and include people that didn't get it or were resistant because sometimes when people don't understand why you're trying to do something new, you know, whether it's conscious or not, they may actually sabotage the, the effort. Right.

Terry McDougall (31m 2s):
And that can be really, that can be really deadly from a career standpoint. Right. You don't take that human factor into consideration, so.

Mark Graban (31m 12s):
Yep. Yeah. So let's, I'm glad with the coaching work, you do, we'll, we'll help people avoid deadly career mistakes. We don't want to start another podcast series called My Deadly Career.

Terry McDougall (31m 21s):
No, we definitely don't want to do that. We do not want to do that.

Mark Graban (31m 26s):
So again, our guest today has been Terry McDougall, her website. You can learn more about everything that she does for people at Terry it's T E R R Y B McDougall with two L's. I should just spell it. I'll put it in the show notes., my mistake. And again, her book is called winning the game of work career happiness and success on your own terms. So I hope you'll check that out. And her podcast is Marketing Mambo… Real quickly, what's the story behind the name? Why Marketing Mambo?

Terry McDougall (32m 3s):
Well, quickly I was talking with one of my clients. Who's a marketing consultants and we got off on this sort of like nerdy marketing, tangent, having a wonderful conversation that we both thought, wow, we're really talking about some cool stuff here. And she said, this would make a really good podcast. And I thought, you know, I'm enjoying this. And I think I would enjoy doing it on a podcast. So I decided I wanted to do it. And I'm thinking like, okay, marketing career insights, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, you know what? I want it to be fun, like what goes with marketing? And so I thought Marketing Mambo, that sounds fun. And actually mombo comes from an African dialect called Yoruba,.

Terry McDougall (32m 47s):
And it means to talk, it's actually Mambo in this particular dialect it's actually used in modern day slang basically to mean, Hey, what's up. So that's kind of what it's about. Like what's up with marketing.

Mark Graban (33m 2s):
Very cool. Well, thank you Terry, for telling the story and I hope people will go check that out. So thank you for sharing your story, what you learned from it and how that's helped you help others. So Terry really appreciate it. Thanks for joining us today, Mark. Thanks for having me again. I want to thank today's guest Terry McDougall. I want to thank you for listening. For show notes, you can go to, and don't forget, you can enter to win books from previous guests. You can go to to learn more. Thanks for subscribing. Please rate and review us too. If you have a chance, I hope this podcast inspires you to reflect on your own mistakes and how you can learn from them or turn them into a positive as our guests have.

Mark Graban (33m 48s):
I've had listeners tell me that they've started being more open and honest about their mistakes in the workplace. And they're trying to create a workplace culture where it's safe for people to speak up about problems because that leads to improvement and better business results. If you have feedback or a story to share, you can email me And again, our website is See you next time.

Mark Graban is an internationally-recognized consultant, author, and professional speaker who has worked in healthcare, manufacturing, and startups. Mark's upcoming book is The Mistakes That Make Us. His latest book is Measures of Success: React Less, Lead Better, Improve More. He is author of the Shingo Award-winning books Lean Hospitals and Healthcare Kaizen, as well as The Executive Guide to Healthcare Kaizen. He also published the anthology Practicing Lean that benefits the Louise H. Batz Patient Safety Foundation, where Mark is a board member. Mark is also a Senior Advisor to the technology company KaiNexus.