My guest for Episode #64 is Lee Houghton, coming to us from England. He's a business improvement coach — his company is called Get Knowledge and he's also the host of a podcast called “Business Problems Solved.”
Here is his episode with Adam Lawrence, who was also my guest here in Episode 41 of My Favorite Mistake. Coincidentally, today Lee is publishing his episode where I am his guest. It's funny how that worked out.
Lee interviewing me:
In the episode, Lee shares a few stories about how he was forcing change on others in the workplace (including the use of Lean manufacturing tools and methods). Why was he telling others what to do and what caused him to reflect on that? Is it a mistake to think that knowledge (training, education) is enough to influence people and affect change? What's the difference between “being told” and “discovering knowledge” in a way that includes learning from mistakes?
Lee also has a program that's worth checking out — “Creating Confident Change Leaders.”
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Automated Transcript (Likely Contains Mistakes)
Mark Graban (0s):
Episode 64 Lee Houghton, host of the Business Problems Solved podcast.
Lee Houghton (6s):
You come in to where I work and tell me how to do my job better. I would tell you to go away or words to that effect.
Mark Graban (15s):
I'm Mark Graban. This is My Favorite Mistake. In this podcast, you'll hear business leaders and other really interesting people talking about their favorite mistakes, because we all make mistakes, but what matters is learning from our mistakes instead of repeating them over and over again. So this is the place for honest reflection and conversation, personal growth and professional success. Visit our website at myfavoritemistakepodcast.com. For show notes, video links, and more, go to MarkGraban.com/mistake64, please follow rate, and review. And now on with the show we're joined today by Lee Houghton, he is a business improvement coach.
Mark Graban (1m 2s):
His company is called Get Knowledge and the web address is getknowledge.co.uk. So that gives you a little bit of a preview of where Lee is joining us from. So how are you today?
Lee Houghton (1m 14s):
Yeah, I'm really good. I'm really excited by this opportunity to talk with you today, Mark. So thank you very much for this. Yeah.
Mark Graban (1m 20s):
Yeah. Well, I'm really excited about the conversation. Lee also has a podcast called Business Problems Solved, and I think I'll end up being a guest on that podcast. So I'll look forward to that as well. Lee, can you tell us before we kind of get into the main topics of the day? Tell us a little bit about the podcast
Lee Houghton (1m 39s):
Real quick. Yeah. Perfect. So it's called Business Problem Solved. As you said, I started about two years ago and originally I wanted to start it to share the lessons that I believe that I've learned over the 15 years in change management. And what it's actually turned into really is an opportunity to chat with people that I never thought I would be able to learn from and never thought I would be able to engage in a conversation with. So it's, it's actually a journal of my life for two years, but also it's an, it's an amazing place where I have some amazing conversations with people like yourself, Mark, where I learn and hopefully the, the listeners learn as well, how to do and overcome some of the challenges that they first well.
Lee Houghton (2m 23s):
Mark Graban (2m 23s):
I hope people will check that out again. It's business problems solved and we've established the, a, the.co.uk part. And we've heard a little from you where exactly in the UK are you based out of?
Lee Houghton (2m 34s):
Yeah, so I don't really have an accent, so it's probably quite difficult, but so I'm from the North of England in a town called Chorley, in between Manchester and Liverpool. That's that's where I reside. Yeah. Chorley born and bred and I don't think I'll ever move away from here. I love the North of England, but yeah, that's what I am.
Mark Graban (2m 53s):
Yeah, no, it is a great accent though.
Lee Houghton (2m 55s):
So thank you very much.
Mark Graban (2m 58s):
So you will right into things Lee, as we talk about here on the show, what would you say is your favorite mistake?
Lee Houghton (3m 5s):
I absolutely love this question because it's made me really reflect on how many mistakes I have made. And I think it's fair to said I've made a lot of mistakes. So to pick my favorite one has been a challenge. I think back to like 16 years ago, when I fell into improvement, my manager said to me that I'd be ideal for it, or I didn't choose improvements. Impro improvement chose me. And I went to the pub. It was a Wednesday. And I went to the pub that night. And after, after I've got the acknowledgement letter to say, I'm now going to be a lean coach in a, in a government organization.
Lee Houghton (3m 47s):
And I told my friends that this is what I was going to be and my best mate looped at me. And he said, Oh, one of them. So talk to me. One of them, he went, one of them who commented where people work and tell him how to do their job better. If you come into where I work and tell me how to do my job better, I would tell you to go away or words to that effect. And so I never, I never listened to that. I just, I laughed that off. And then I think to like three, four weeks later, as I was learning about lean and the boat improvements, and I attended a, a visual management training and it was about performance boards, white boards.
Lee Houghton (4m 32s):
And I left that training and I was all engaged. I knew the team I was going to be working with because I was supporting some of the more established team members. I knew the team I was working with. And I went over to the knee, was white board on a different team and a wheel. It was a team that was working with and I was there. She's going to change your life. This is going to be amazing. I can't believe that we've not seen this before. And I started to talk them through it. You're gonna, you're gonna have your performance here. Your people stuffy air quality or problem solving here. It's gonna, it's going to be amazing. And then what stood back at me was blank, faces some angry faces. And then I think back to what my best mates said to me, and I thought you fool, you've done exactly.
Lee Houghton (5m 16s):
You're, you're just exactly as he thought, the perception of the change people were. So my favorite mistake is thinking that I, after a little bit of training knew what was better for people in a team to improve. That's what my favorite mistake is because I really believe that over the last 15 years, I have been trying to unlearn that I've been unlearning that mistake because that's not the way that it needs to be done it's as a different way. And it's all down to knowledge.
Mark Graban (5m 47s):
Wow. And, and I mean, that really resonates with me because I've told a similar story when people have asked me what's, what's my favorite mistake. This is something I shared in, in a book called Practicing Lean, a book that I edited and contributed to. And I told the story about earlier in my career, I'm making a very similar mistake. And so my question for you though, Lee, you know, I looked back in my situation and I think some of it was a reflection of the culture I was working within. It wasn't really an organization that made extra efforts to get input from the frontline employees. There, there was sort of a culture of experts doing change to people.
Mark Graban (6m 32s):
So thinking about, you know, the, the, the, the situation tht you were in there, how much of that do you think was your mistake or how much of that was the way you were taught to go about this in your Lean Six Sigma training?
Lee Houghton (6m 45s):
Yeah. So I think I have to take the bulk of the responsibility in this instance, because it was, it was my naivete. It was, it was like, I'd seen a light I'd worked in, in that business. And I was promoted to an improvement person from, from within. And so in seeing and going through this trail and I had seen the lights and I'd seen a better way to do it. And the culture and the improvement program was very tool centric. And, and it was like, Oh, this is visual monitor. This is a whiteboard, this is what you need to do and go and do it. And so that was a cultural part of it. It was like done to tools thrown out.
Lee Houghton (7m 27s):
And my naivete was pickup that pickup, that spanner pickup, that two old pickup that the whiteboard and just go and show them. And, and, and they would also see the light, but I saw the light because I had been removed from it. I wasn't in the work at that point in time. And I could see the opportunity that that could be by this type of tool. And I, I just wrongly went and just told them exactly what they needed to do to, to make them better, but they weren't ready for that. They weren't ready for it at all. And especially from somebody who was a peer a few weeks previous thinking that in a few, in a few weeks or few weeks, since that actually he knows better what yeah.
Lee Houghton (8m 10s):
What a fool. I was, what a fool I was. Yeah.
Mark Graban (8m 14s):
And thinking back to your pub story, we can, all, we can all imagine the actual words that were probably said over a pint, we'll just leave that to everyone, to, to fill in the blanks there. So we don't have to put an explicit label on the podcast episode. Right.
Lee Houghton (8m 31s):
Completely, completely. But I think that shows because that was a completely different organization as well. And if I think back 15, 20 years, and if that's his perception in his organization of how improvement was delivered in that environment, and then you hear all of the horror stories or not horror stories, just all of the stories, the home improvements was, is, was delivered on and still is delivered in some quarters. Then it's no wonder that that choice language is used when it thought it was being done too. Because in his head, my best mate, Chris, in his head, he was like, I sat on this line.
Lee Houghton (9m 11s):
I understand this job more than anybody else understands this job, no body doesn't do this job can tell me I can do my job, but that's why I'm getting paid. So yeah, it's an only on reflection. There are, see it as a huge mistake now.
Mark Graban (9m 26s):
Yeah. Well, and it's, it's, it's a common mistake. I've, you know, it's a story I've heard a lot, but in your case, Lee, were you able to recover with that team? You know, you got blank stares. I imagine then you didn't say, Oh, right, nevermind. I mean, you, you had to proceed. How, how did you go about that? Were you able to bring people along with the possibility of this whiteboard
Lee Houghton (9m 53s):
To a degree? Yes, but that was only because I was working with more experienced people. And also only because the culture of the organization was to do two and it was a set program of, you will love this tool, then you will have this tool and then you will have this tool and then you will love this tool. And then you'll love this tool and a lot. And then these tools all stick together. So in terms of recovery, yes, it was all delivered, but yes, it was all done too. So it wasn't as I would, it was not as, as I would encourage improvement to be delivered now because it was a predefined solution that thought everybody needed all of these things and done in this way.
Lee Houghton (10m 36s):
So people didn't buy into it. And that the biggest challenge in th throughout that whole program was to encourage people, to use these things and to see the benefit rather. And in the end, a lot of it was just wallpaper or was just furniture because the benefit wasn't there for people because they weren't brought into it in the, in the right way to solve the right problems. It was seen as a silver bullet. And it's not, it wasn't a silver bullet.
Mark Graban (11m 10s):
So as you've learned over time, I mean, it seems like there's, you know, similar reflections that you've had and I've had from our experiences, you know, in what ways is it a mistake to think that knowledge alone affects change? That's something, you know, we, we could try to make a logical argument that something is going to be positive. What are your thoughts on, on this idea of having to move beyond knowledge or, or, or moving beyond tools, you know, similar, similar, similar idea? I think,
Lee Houghton (11m 43s):
Yeah, no, it completely is. And I think it depends on who has the knowledge, because if it's the consultant or the court that has the, then that's not right, the it's the, it's the recipient, it's the person who's working on the process that really should have the knowledge. And ultimately, when we think about gap knowledge is that as the company, that myself and my business partner of God, that's the whole ethos of it. It's, it's not for us to get knowledge it's for you to get knowledge about what you do. And we've, we've gone through a program we've gone through not program.
Lee Houghton (12m 24s):
We've gone through, like, when we settled the business, we didn't want to call ourselves consultants. We want you to call ourselves porches because we want it. It's about capability building and leaving the, the, the ownership of solution and mindset and thought and knowledge with the business and organization. So I think to get somebody to do something new, yes, you've got to get them to think different. And you've also got them, got to get them to do different. But if, if it's you, that's holding onto that knowledge, then people aren't thinking different, they're using the same thoughts and same thinking. That's created the situation and environment, and that's not going to prompt any different actions.
Lee Houghton (13m 6s):
So, so yeah, so I think knowledge is an important part, but it's not your knowledge. It's the team's knowledge. And for them to learn them for themselves, by making mistakes. And, and that's where I think the name of this podcast is a beautiful name for these podcasts. Because one thing we don't do is we don't make mistakes acceptable. And what I think you've got here making your positively framing mistakes, which not very many people doing. And that's the mindset thing as well. So if you can recognize that mistakes are a source of learning, then it makes it all possible mix.
Lee Houghton (13m 45s):
You can improve. You can, your, your knowledge is increasing through learning ultimately. So, so yeah, that's why I would say it's not all about knowledge. It's definitely not all about tools, but it's about challenging asking questions to get people to think, to then do different themselves.
Mark Graban (14m 6s):
Yeah. I mean, it seems like there's a difference between being, being told knowledge, being the recipient of knowledge, versus discovering and creating knowledge through action or experiments. And some of those experiments then will lead to outcomes. We didn't desire. We may label that a mistake, but maybe it's more important to label it as learning. So it seems like you you've learned, I mean, what are some of the approaches that you take now to help inspire people to take action that creates their own learning?
Lee Houghton (14m 44s):
So I think one of the fundamental things is that I fully believe that the difference between good and great is the level of that you can evoke in somebody. And if somebody feels something strong enough, if somebody feels that emotion, then they are going to be able to then take an action. And they'll be motivated to move from the current state, to the future state, whatever that be personally or professionally. And everybody's an individual. So my first step on everything is getting everybody to recognize that change starts with the individual change starts with them, whether it is the change facilitator or the person who is working on the process, everybody has a role to play.
Lee Houghton (15m 28s):
And I think if you get everybody to accept that change starts with them, and then you can get, you can understand what the current thinking is about it. And what's important to them about the journey that you're about to embark on together. It's like, so I'm not, I'm in no way, shape or form in a new role scientists. I'm not, I'm big, big on psych. I'm a fan of psychology, but as you can probably tell, I'm not very articulate then. And the bread is an amazing, amazing tool. It remembers things in it. Doesn't remember things in words, it remembers things in pictures and emotions. And if I was to ask you Mark, what's your, what's your oldest childhood memory.
Lee Houghton (16m 12s):
And if any, if the listeners are listening and they're thinking about what the oldest childhood memory is, then you would probably go back to a time when you were well, how old, how old what's your earliest childhood memory? Mark?
Mark Graban (16m 26s):
I can remember. I can picture some moments from the first house my parents had. We were there until I was four years old. So maybe some of these early memories are like when I was three, I'm guessing a little bit, but definitely, definitely first four years. I can, I can even picture now I can picture some scenes and moments from preschool the year before kindergarten.
Lee Houghton (16m 55s):
Yeah. Amazing. And this is, if I was to ask you, what did you offer your launch three weeks ago on a Wednesday? You're not got a clue, but that is how amazing the brain is. It remembers things in pictures and emotions. And, and when you were telling, when you were recalling some of those stories and you were smiling, as you were saying, so there's, you've got an emotion attached to those times at that point in time. So as change people as facilitators of change as leaders, if we can get people to feel things and positively about the journey that they are on, then they are going to remember the reason why they're doing it. They're going to have that more eversion to move from the current state to the future States.
Lee Houghton (17m 36s):
And I think that is the most powerful thing. So the difference between good and great for me is your ability to get people, to feel any emotion about what it is that you are wanting to do, whether that's a change, whether it's a professional change, but you've got to feel something and too many change programs start with why it's important for the business, why we're going to reduce money off the, yeah, we're going to save money. If the bottom line we're gonna improve our productivity, which is all good and well, but why, what is it that each individual,
Mark Graban (18m 12s):
Like what you said, you know, the reasons why this is good for the business, that is knowledge that is rational. And people, my understanding of psychology, you know, I think informs us that people are more complicated than that. We can't, I think it's unrealistic to tell people things like, well, you know, check your emotions at the door or this, this is chess business. Well, business is made of people and people have those emotions. So I think it's really smart of you to acknowledge that and, and try to build upon or tap into
Lee Houghton (18m 44s):
Yeah, you're dead, right? People are the most important part of leadership and of change. And every one of those people is, are different. And we have to recognize that what works for one person doesn't work for another person. I always remember actually I was leading a change initiative and public sector in the UK and the solution required. It was in an office birth in an office. And this solution required an individual to move desks from here to just a desk to over here, literally six feet away.
Lee Houghton (19m 26s):
And I thought it was the simplest thing for him to do to him. It was the biggest change in the world. He had sat in that seat for five, six, seven, eight years. He had the pictures of his kids that it was sat next to… So it's sat next to for a few years and to ask him to move from this seat to another seat was the biggest thing in the world. But to me, as the, as the person leading it, it was the smallest thing of the whole change program. And if you were to ask me what my second favorite mistake is, it would have been telling Mike that it needed to move from there to there without really understanding what it meant for him. So see, it's all about people, Mark.
Lee Houghton (20m 7s):
Mark Graban (20m 7s):
Yeah. And, and that includes leaders. So I just wanted to go back a little bit, you know, you said you had talked earlier about change, starts with individuals when you're working with organizations. I mean, that, that applies to leaders or executives. Do you have an opportunity in your work to try to influence them in terms of moving away from some of these old habits of forcing change on people or I, I think of the title of one of the books written by somebody I don't want you, you may be familiar with, or you worked in public sector, John Seddon who wrote a book called Freedom From Command and Control, and those habits really run deep in people.
Mark Graban (20m 49s):
What, what, what have you been able to do, you know, as you've had your own lessons about not forcing change on people, what have you been able to work with leaders to try to move away from that old habit?
Lee Houghton (20m 59s):
Yeah, there's a whole, a whole host of things. So the first thing that springs to mind is I remember leading a, a change initiative across a shared service organizer or shared service part of it, part of a business. And it was multi location and they're hard. It was elite a typic, it was a lean program, but there were there, they were introducing. And I had the leadership team in front of me and they had, cause they were working with some different of different consultants. They brought in a framework that there needed to, they needed to hit. And there was five levels of this framework. So they'd all been bought into this achieving these five different levels of, of the framework.
Lee Houghton (21m 43s):
And they were, everybody was aspiring to achieve a level five. And when I was brought in, that was what they wanted me to help them to achieve, to get over. So I sat them down. I sat the leadership team down and I said, congratulations, you've achieved level five. It's now the year, fall day at the year three, four years. I says, congratulations. You've achieved that. What an amazing achievement over the last three years, we have done this. And what I want to do now is just really reflect on what we've done, the journey we've been on and how we've achieved it. So I called the senior manager on a pre preferred, a certificate, handed them a certificate. I asked somebody to take a picture of us as we shook hands.
Lee Houghton (22m 24s):
And we, we, and then we sat down. I said, let's now just consider, let's look outside of the door of the, of this room now. And I said, I said, what do we say? What do we see happening? What's happening? What are people using? What, and then what, what's the feeling like on the floor where we are, how do people feel and what are they doing and what conversations can we hear? So I want you to introduce all of the senses, but far with debt, the session into the, into the future to go, to get people to think three years on they've achieved what they wanted to achieve, what, what things are happening in the world, what conversations are happening, what the hearing and how does it feel living in that world? I said, brilliant. Again, we captured all of these things on the, on, on the, on the wall.
Lee Houghton (23m 7s):
And it said, right, okay. It's a lot of hard work that we've done a lot of hard work of what we've done. What are the things that we've done now, if we think back on the three years, so then we applied all of the things that have been achieved. And I said, I said, well, what role have you played in this? What have you done? And what have you done different in the last three years than the, than the previous years to achieve in it? Because then they have to re they have to then say that they've done something different because a lot of their decisions had created the place that they were in. And only by recognizing that there needed to actually do different things, different do could there then start that journey.
Lee Houghton (23m 48s):
So that was one of the, one of the sessions that I've facilitated a few times to try to get people, just to recognize that if they really want to achieve what they want to achieve, then they've got to think differently and do differently themselves. And by then creating that wall plan on the wall and, and acknowledging what their own personal journeys were going to be was you could hold them to account, or they could be accountable for that as well. Think it's getting people to see stuff, isn't it. They've got to, they've got to visualize the, these things.
Mark Graban (24m 23s):
I think you have to figure out how to create experiences, where they can see, and there are different methods for that. I mean, one of the books in the lean literature by John shook from the lean enterprise Institute, in a way, it seems like the book is about a tool referred to as value stream mapping. But the book is called learning to see is I think is very intentional. The book's not called learn how to value stream map. The point is, you know, experiences, this shared mapping of, you know, the way work is done that allows people to see, instead of just thinking, Oh yeah, we, we know how things work here. Well, do you really, sometimes you have to test that
Lee Houghton (25m 5s):
The assumption. Yeah. I would love him to release a new book, learning to see and feel, because I think if you attach feelings and emotions to it, then you're, then you're going to be work 10 times harder to get to it. So, cause I think you've got, I think without that emotion, that for me is the big motivator. So you're learning to see and feel if John is listening, then that's what I think he should do. Next. That's a great idea. Maybe you can write that. Yeah, we, yeah, we could, we could collaborate on it. Mark. If you've answered, maybe
Mark Graban (25m 43s):
That's, that's, that's a good idea because you know, I I've, again, I've learned sometimes I've learned these lessons the hard way about the need to engage people and realizing change is not just about the rational I got. I'm an engineer. So if you look at different personality profiles, I fit into the thinking, you know, logical, but I've, I've had to learn and, and working in healthcare, frankly, has helped me with this to also consider more about the feelings and the emotional connections that people have to work. Because I think that really is critically important. In other settings, I would have been more successful back in my days in manufacturing, if I had a better grasp of that.
Lee Houghton (26m 24s):
Yeah, yeah. No, completely, completely. No, it's good. Really good
Mark Graban (26m 28s):
Of my mistakes. So Lee, before we wrap up, I want to take a few minutes to talk about a program that you have called Creating Confident Change Leaders. There's a separate website. People can go to it is www.creatingconfident.com. Can you tell me?
Lee Houghton (26m 47s):
Yeah, no. Perfect. Thank you, Mark. Yes. So I genuinely believe that my last 16 years, 15, 16 years in church have been the best and the worst of my life because change can be the loneliest place in the world. If you are the sole voice, pushing up hill, your peers don't want to change. Your leaders are only doing it because they're told to change can be a really lonely place. And what, when we were in lockdown in March last year, we were told I was, I had a lot of time to reflect on my career in change.
Lee Houghton (27m 28s):
And what I wanted to do was to create a program, to try to get people, to see that the, how they're feeling, the challenges that they've got and the challenges that they're seeing, the same as what a lot of other people are seeing within change. So I've created a group coaching program. There's two, there's an online program and there's a group coaching program. And the group coaching program is, is I think the, the, the ultimate solution for this, because I bring together 10 like-minded people from different organizations through an eight week program, which is based on five modules. The first one is we spoke about quite a lot today, actually about recognizing that change starts with you.
Lee Houghton (28m 10s):
And we'll talk about that and get the change facilitates a change leader to recognize that actually it's not about the team they're working with first it's about them and their approach. And then it's about understanding yourself. So getting a realization for your thoughts, drive behavior. And then we talk about storytelling and creating allies, building trust, and that's all in, in, in week three, module three, then it's about influencing others. So after we got a real good grasp of ourselves and, and, and actually the world that we're in and what I work rollies and how we can change, then we talk about other people and how we can influence other people. Because we can't do that. If we don't recognize what we're doing. And then the fifth and final module is act.
Lee Houghton (28m 53s):
Now time's limited because too many people procrastinate. And there's my biggest frustration, which if you're going to run another podcast and call it biggest frustration, I'll give you what mine is. Now. My biggest frustration is that those people that said that they want to get better, but they wait. They wait till Monday, the start of a moment at the start of a year before they'll actually start to do something. So what I look to try to do in the final thing is we've got a lovely eight weeks together. What can you do now? And what do you need to do to have the motivation to move forward in terms of forming habits and, and, and making it reality rather than wet. And so, yeah, so that's, that's the program, but ultimately it's to bring together change professionals, to normalize the challenges that they've got, because it can be lonely.
Lee Houghton (29m 39s):
And I don't want people to feel the way that I felt that was horrible. Yeah.
Mark Graban (29m 44s):
Well, it's good. I mean, to learn from those situations, you reflected on what your friends said in the pub, you reflected on the blank stares. And I recognize it's either the blank stares or it's the crossed arms. It's the staring at their shoes. You know, that body language of, of people who aren't engaged and people who need to be engaged. So I'm, I'm glad that you've learned from that. Lee is, and, and that you've shared your stories and reflections with us here today. So I do want to also mention on that, on that creating confidence.com website, there's a free impact guide that leaders Lee is offering.
Mark Graban (30m 28s):
You can go to creatingconfidence.com/impact. If you want to get that. And again, our guest has been Lee Houghton, his company is Get Knowledge, that's getknowledge.co.uk. And I smile. I have positive memories like the times when I've been in England. And, you know, you hear, you hear ads and you hear the web address and, and to hear the .co.uk and how that sounds some reason that sounds a lot cooler than.com.
Lee Houghton (30m 57s):
Yeah, no, honestly, though Mark, thanks so much for the opportunity to chat with you today. It's been an absolute pleasure to share some of those stories with you.
Mark Graban (31m 6s):
Yeah. Well, thank you. And thank you for prompting. Not just memories of times when I've had the chance to be to England, but boy, you got me going back into early, early days of my childhood. So thank you for, for prompting that. And thankfully it did come up with a smile And please, thank you so much. Talk to you again soon, sometime. Thanks again, to Lee for being such a great guest, to learn more about him and his podcast and more you can go to MarkGraban.com/mistake64. In fact, you can find the episode also released today, where Lee interviews me on his podcast.
Mark Graban (31m 47s):
I hope you'll check it out. And I hope this podcast inspires you to reflect on your own mistakes, how you can learn from them or turn them into a positive I've had listeners tell me they've started being more open and honest about mistakes and their work. And they're trying to create a workplace culture where it's safe to speak up about problems, cause that leads to more improvement and better business results. If you have feedback or a story to share, you can email me firstname.lastname@example.org. And again, our website is myfavoritemistakepodcast.com.