Check out all episodes on the My Favorite Mistake main page.
My guest for Episode #204 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is Amanda C. Watts, “The Empowered Introvert.” She is the award-winning founder of Oompf Global. Embracing her ‘hidden’ introvert strengths, she has served over 700 clients in 23 countries, amassed a community of 25,000 followers, and written three best-selling books.
Her mission is to educate other introverted professionals – including accountants, business coaches, and consultants – on how to do marketing and manage their energy so that they can make more money with fewer clients.
In this episode, Amanda shares her favorite mistake story about her “journey of burnout.” How did she get burned out, how did she recover, and how can others avoid or prevent burnout? Why did Amanda go through multiple cycles of burnout and what can we all learn from that?
Questions and Topics:
- What’s an introvert doing as a guest on a podcast?
- Burnout – avoiding it, not repeating the mistake?
- Recovering from burnout?
- Again, I’m an introvert… I could use your help, I think!
- A “chatty introvert”
- Maintaining Energy for introverts
- What types of sales & marketing activities feel right to introverts?
- Not charging your worth? — free ebook
- Get Paid Your Worth, the Nine Rules for Attracting High Value Clients as an Introvert Business Owner
Scroll down to find:
- Video clips from the episode
- How to subscribe
- Full transcript
Find Amanda on social media:
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Mark Graban (0s):
Episode 204, Amanda C. Watts, the Empowered Introvert.
Amanda Watts (5s):
And my favorite mistake, and it wasn't a great mistake cause I was going through it, but is my journey of burnout.
Mark Graban (14s):
I'm Mark Graban. This is my favorite mistake. In this podcast, you'll hear business leaders and other really interesting people talking about their favorite mistakes because we all make mistakes. But what matters is learning from our mistakes instead of repeating them over and over again. So this is the place for honest reflection and conversation, personal growth and professional success. Visit our website at myfavoritemistakepodcast.com. For more information about Amanda, look for links on the show notes, or go to markgraban.com/mistake204. As always, thanks for being here. Thanks for listening, on with the show.
Mark Graban (54s):
Well, hi everybody. Welcome back to My Favorite Mistake. My guest today is Amanda C. Watts, the empowered introvert. So Amanda is the award-winning founder of Oompf Global Am Am I saying that correctly, Amanda? Yeah,
Amanda Watts (1m 8s):
You are Oompf. That's right. Give it some Oompf. That's exactly right.
Mark Graban (1m 13s):
She embraces her hidden introvert strengths. So she calls 'em, she served more than 700 clients in 23 countries. She has a community of 25,000 followers, and she's written three bestselling books. So Amanda's mission is to educate other introverted professionals, including accountants, business coaches, consultants, on, on how to do marketing, how to manage their energy as introverts to make more money with fewer clients. So as a entrepreneur, as an introvert, we're, well, I, I guess we, we both wear those same, those same labels. So Amanda, welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Amanda Watts (1m 51s):
I'm very good. Thank you so much for having me. Super excited about today.
Mark Graban (1m 55s):
So, you know, I mean, look, first impressions people might say she doesn't seem like an introvert, or what's an introvert doing? Being a guest on a podcast?
Amanda Watts (2m 5s):
Absolutely. Yeah. I think what I'd love to share is what an introvert is the, the official term for an introvert, because introverts are often labeled, well, I have been often labeled with titles like shy. So if you put me in a room of people, I, I don't wanna talk to anyone. We're we're labeled as Shai. We're labeled as reserved. We're labeled as I've been called a snob before. And that's because in a room, I'm sitting there maybe listening rather than interacting. And I might have a funny face because I'm listening intently. So I've been called a snob before that that's happened.
Amanda Watts (2m 46s):
But actually, an introvert is all about energy. And the best way for me to describe it, because you'll have some introverts and some extroverts or listening today, the best way to describe it is an extrovert in the morning wakes up and they have no coins. So we're gonna talk about coins, and each coin is going to represent energy. And an extrovert wakes up in the morning and has no coins, they've not interacted, they've not done anything. They wake up and they're just kind of a little bit like, ugh, like this is my day, this is how it is. And then they'll talk to someone. And it could be someone random on the train station on the way to work. It could be a family member, it could be anything. They'll talk to someone in the morning and they'll be like, oh, I've got a coin.
Amanda Watts (3m 26s):
I've got some energy. That person has given me some energy. And then throughout the day, each of their interactions with other people will give them energy. And at the end of the day, an extrovert has five coins. An introvert is the opposite. Okay? So an introvert has spent all night sleeping and relaxing, and they wake up and they go, oh, what a wonderful day it's going to be. I've got lots of energy. A little bit like you said to me a moment, mark, it's okay, I can get up in the morning. Introverts tend to find it easier to get up in the morning, and then they interact with someone and they, they make small talk on the train station, and they've got five coins when they wake up and each interaction, they lose a coin.
Amanda Watts (4m 11s):
So by the end of the day, they don't have any coins left. They're exhausted and they're like, oh my gosh, I'm so tired. So whereas an extrovert gets their energy more each day, an introvert loses their energy with interactions with people. And a prime example of this was when I was working in corporate, at the end of the day, my entre, my extrovert peers would go, let's go to the pub. And I'd be like, what? I've been talking to people all day. I'm going home to watch TV and eat, pastor, leave me alone. So there's a really prime example. So at the end of the day, do you wanna go out partying or do you wanna go and curl up with a good book and just shut out the world because you've given the world your energy?
Amanda Watts (4m 53s):
So that's really where I'm at. It's not about the fact that I can go on a podcast or I can talk on a video, because that, that is not the, the definition of an introvert and extrovert, right? That's about confidence, that's about dedication to doing it and getting out of our own way. That's a whole different thing. But at the end of the day, I'll be exhausted. And an extrovert is buzzing. Tends to be a really good way to put it.
Mark Graban (5m 16s):
Yeah, no, and we'll, we'll, we'll come back and talk more about that. And so before you run out of coins, Amanda, we'll make sure we get to, you know, the first question that we always ask here. You know, thinking back to the things you've done as an entrepreneur in, in different settings, what would you say is your favorite mistake?
Amanda Watts (5m 36s):
So, my favorite mistake has led me to this conversation. My favorite mistake, and it wasn't a, a great mistake cause I was going through it, but is my journey of burnout and how I, I've been in the entrepreneurial world very fortunately since 2009. So I, I'm 14 years, I've cut my teeth in this world. And I would say that I have had to launch maybe three or four different businesses because of not managing my energy. So my favorite mistake, stupidly, I did four times. And it was all about me believing that to have a successful business, I had to act in an extrovert world like an extrovert.
Amanda Watts (6m 20s):
And that was the, the mistake that led me to creating the business I've got now, the success that I've got now, my messaging, my my ability to have a conversation with you and enjoy my business because I thought I had to be a Gary V or a gra Cardone and I need to push and push and push. And actually you don't, there is an alternative. So my favorite mistake has been burn out where I had to take a year off and didn't get out of bed. So, really horrible mistake, but my favorite mistake. Wow.
Mark Graban (6m 54s):
What do, what, what was, could you walk us through, Amanda, what, like what was the first business, what type of business was it? How, how did you first realize, gosh, that, that you were burned out? Was it gradual?
Amanda Watts (7m 7s):
Yeah. So the first business was a copywriting business. I was stuck on housing benefit. So I'd got myself out of a, a situation. I had two kites. They were both very young. I was on housing benefit and I had a, a decision of do I start my own business, which seems like hard work or do I go back to the corporate world? And I couldn't go back to the corporate world. I wasn't living in London anymore, so I couldn't travel into town. And I also had two little ones to look after and, and nobody to help me. So my first business was a copywriting business. And the mistake that I made there that gave me burnout was not pricing my services properly.
Amanda Watts (7m 49s):
So I was pricing at 25 pound an hour and of course I, the only way I could work was to work more. And when you price yourself in that way, and you are working really hard and trying to do marketing, my day would end at two o'clock in the morning and start again at six o'clock with the kitties when they needed breakfast and getting ready for school. So I got burnt out. It probably took about three years, but I, I got stuck at not earning very much money. I was working all the hours. I was jumping into partnerships with people. I, my, my second mistake that I made when I first started was I teamed up with somebody else that was an extrovert and somehow I got myself into the situation of working three times as hard as I should have been.
Amanda Watts (8m 35s):
Four times, five times. So the, it's kind of all accumulated. So I went from copywriting business to burnout, had to take some time off. Then I went into a partnership for a coaching business, social media coaching business, burnout. Got in, got into bed with a, an extrovert as they say. Then the next business was working with like a generalist. So I was helping people with marketing, but it was really generalist. And then I was having to push and push and push burnout. Then I got burnout and had to take a whole year off because my business was quite successful cuz I niched down and started working with coaches.
Amanda Watts (9m 16s):
Business was quite successful. But there, i, I just couldn't manage my energy like throughout the whole event, I just got dragged from pillar to post and let other people rule my energy as well. So, yeah, there's lots there ma
Mark Graban (9m 30s):
Yeah, yeah. You, you talk about teaming with an extrovert, I'd, I'd like to hear more about that because, you know, on, on one level you might think it, it's helpful to have people with complimentary personalities, different skill sets. Why, why, why, why did that not work out well for you?
Amanda Watts (9m 50s):
Yeah, so a huge, another huge lesson. I know that it's only meant to make one major mistake, but I've been in business for years, so I've made many mistakes. My favorite was the introvert one, but there are plenty of others. So teaming up with an extrovert on paper looks like a good idea. You know, how they say opposites attract and you know, higher for your weaknesses. But actually I don't think being an introvert is a weakness and being an introvert is just about managing your energy. It doesn't mean that we are not bad at being an entrepreneur. It doesn't mean that we can't run a business, doesn't mean any of that. What it means is that I get exhausted if I have lots of people to talk to.
Amanda Watts (10m 31s):
Now the problem is, is if you team up with an extrovert and you are both at the helm of the business, so you are both running the business. So you've got this extrovert who's going, let's meet, let's meet, let's meet, let's meet, let's, and you've got this introvert going, I just need like four hours peace and quiet so that I can stare at my wall and then guilt kicks in. Okay. So I would work till two, three in the morning because I felt guilty because I wasn't working as hard as her on the surface, although my brain was working harder than her. Does that make sense?
Mark Graban (11m 5s):
Does but but she wanted to drag you into the same things as opposed to just dividing you go do this type of work, what
Amanda Watts (11m 12s):
You are good at and Yeah, exactly. And I think that you, you shouldn't necessarily hire an extrovert. You should fire, hire, co complimentary skills. So an introvert can have complimentary skills and an extrovert can have complimentary skills, but you don't want to be the same people, just one introvert, one extrovert. And that, that caused a lot of problems. And in the end, I literally had to run away from the relationship. I, I had to literally move and say, I can't do this anymore. And I've seen that in my personal life as well, is I, I get myself into a situation where people want too much.
Amanda Watts (11m 54s):
So you don't put those boundaries in and they want too much from you and they're like on the phone all the time. They're texting you all the time, they need you, they're needy. And that as an introvert, that's too much for us. Cause we lose our coins. And that neediness then means that we either have to like give up our soul or we have to say to somebody else like, this is too much and hurt them. And I, I think on my journey in, in life as well as entrepreneurial, I've ended a lot of friendships because they've been extroverts and I haven't been able to articulate, you're just drowning me. You're just, it's too much. So it's really interesting how it kind of all weaves in, but the solution to having a successful business is not an introvert and extrovert.
Amanda Watts (12m 39s):
It's what are your skills? What are somebody else's skills? A hundred percent.
Mark Graban (12m 43s):
Yeah. Well that's a great point. And you know, Amanda, you're well, you know, thank you. First off, thank you for sharing all of that. And then, you know, secondly, you're, you're, you're certainly not the only guest. You're certainly not the only person who has gone through cycles of repeating a mistake. And, you know, so I, I guess my question to that is, you know, after those unfortunate cycles of burnout and taking time off and starting a new business, it seems like you feel like you have it figured out now. Yes. Like what, what do you think was sort of the key then for launching the business you're in now? What, what's your plan? I imagine there's a plan or you feel like you're in Europe on a path to not repeat the burnout cycle this time.
Amanda Watts (13m 27s):
A hundred percent. So it's about knowing myself there. There'll be people who are listening today that, like, I've never even thought of introvert or extrovert. There's gonna be people here who have never heard of disc profiling or Myers Briggs or something like, and that's absolutely fine because that, that's our journey. We need someone to, to share with us. And that's why these podcasts are so good. But for me, I, you know, if you keep on doing what you've always done, you'll keep on getting what you've always got. And I can't go through burnout again, cuz every time it gets worse. Like the first time I had to have a bit of time off. The second time was a couple of months. The, the last time I had to have a whole year off.
Amanda Watts (14m 10s):
I, I couldn't, I carried on helping my clients, but I couldn't show up and do marketing. I, I had, I literally had to take, I, I had 300 clients and I had to take it down to 50 clients to keep my business going because I was burnt out. Now on the surface it didn't look like it. I'm very fortunate. It, it looked like I was still smooth sailing, but underneath I was dying. And it was, I I couldn't do it again, but I couldn't do it again. So I went really deep into understanding what gives me energy, what sucks my energy. And prime example, my, my business partner Matthew, who's also my husband, so I can't run away from him, but my business partner, Matthew, he said to me, oh, can we have a meeting next week?
Amanda Watts (14m 54s):
And I said, no, because I'm running a workshop the day before and I know that, that following morning I'm gonna be tired. Whereas normally I would've gone, oh look, there's white space, let's fill it. But actually I can't fill it because otherwise the following week I'm not gonna be able to work properly. Cause I would've done too much that week. It doesn't make us weaker, it just means that we go deeper with things and sometimes it's a bit slower, but we probably are more effective in the things that we do because we manage our day. Does that make sense?
Mark Graban (15m 27s):
It does, it makes a lot of sense. And I was gonna also ask, I mean, when, when it, when it comes to recovering from burnout, is it, is it a matter of, you know, the expression, time heals all wounds? Do you, do you find help?
Amanda Watts (15m 44s):
Yes. Great question. What what do I do? The first few times I just curl up in bed and cry. That's pretty much, it's burnout is not, I'm tired. Burnout is, the brain hurts. The body is like literally pounding all the time. Exhaustion, couldn't even get up the stairs. I was absolutely done. So burnout, some people would say exercise, eat healthily. It's like, I can't even make food and I can't even leave my house. I'm done. It was, it was that bad. So it was really just rest. It was a lot of tv.
Amanda Watts (16m 25s):
I dunno if you've ever seen like Game of Thrones. I watched that back to back.
Mark Graban (16m 29s):
You've heard of that, but I haven't watched.
Amanda Watts (16m 30s):
Yeah. I'm very fortunate that my son is a film buff and is, he's studying film at university and I love film as well. So a lot of my burnout time was literally spent consuming Netflix. It was at the tail end, the la the last time was the tail end of Covid here in the uk. So, so people were used to not having someone around all the time. And it worked very well. And I just watched a lot of Netflix, like thank heavens for Netflix. Yeah. 25 years ago I would've had the choice of three channels.
Mark Graban (17m 5s):
But your description, Amanda, of, you know, introvert extroverts and you know that that question of drawing energy is, is is a good one. And you mentioned Myers Briggs. I can think back to the first time I can almost picture the room where I was sitting in college at university doing the Myers Briggs assessment and then I think maybe first into the workplace. And I'll tell you, I, I think I felt in my own head the social pressure to answer the way I wanted to be. Yes. So I I was maybe slightly extrovert the first time I took the assessments, I was lying to myself.
Mark Graban (17m 47s):
Yeah. And it took me a while to understand introvert doesn't mean quiet all the time. Like I've, I've, I've, I've kind of put a label on myself. I am perhaps a chatty introvert.
Amanda Watts (18m 0s):
Mark Graban (18m 2s):
You can, you can, not that you're trying to fool people, but you can portray, come across as an extrovert, but then, like you said, it then is exhausting. You can only do it.
Amanda Watts (18m 13s):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Mark Graban (18m 15s):
Long. So I had to learn to start answering the Myers-Briggs, honestly. And I am actually very heavily on the side of introvert in that introvert extrovert spectrum.
Amanda Watts (18m 25s):
Yeah, me too. And I think when you, you take something like Myers Briggs, like, like you did, when you are young, you don't know yourself, you don't know your values, you don't know yet what you want to stand for in the world. So you do take these tests and, and maybe sometimes when you're older as well, you do take these tests and you're like, should I press that one even though I resonate with that one? And I totally get it. And I think that on my journey of being this entrepreneur, I don't even like calling myself an entrepreneur. I have one business entrepreneurs have many businesses as a business owner. Business owner, yeah. On this journey, I have found my values.
Amanda Watts (19m 7s):
I'm really, really true to who I am. And this is what gives me the ability to say I am an introvert and be proud of it. And I, I have three values in the business that I take into all of my introvert and extrovert employees. And the three values are one, be effective. Okay? So everything that you have to do is be effective. The next one is have empathy. So listen to your peers and to our clients and understand them. And then the third one is bring energy. And just because we're an introvert doesn't mean that we don't have energy.
Amanda Watts (19m 48s):
It just means that we have a finite amount of energy and we bring it at the right time. And when you have those three values combined, it actually makes for a very solid business because you are doing the right things at the right time in the right way, which is the bring energy, be effective and have empathy. And I think that that's really key. And if anyone is struggling with who they are and how they show up in business, and whether they're an introvert or an extrovert, really understand what you stand for gives you the confidence to go, this is, this is who I am. And without values and without a reason for being, you are going to struggle with even the basics of introvert and extrovert, let alone who you are.
Amanda Watts (20m 35s):
I really believe that.
Mark Graban (20m 36s):
Yeah. And, and I wanna amplify something you said earlier. I think this is the, one of the most important quotes from the episode. I don't think being an introvert is a weakness. And i'll, and I'll amplify that even more strongly. Being an introvert is not a weakness, it's just a difference.
Amanda Watts (20m 52s):
Oh, completely. And we have superpowers. So we have massive superpowers because we listen. Okay, so Mark, you're, you are listening to me extroverts, they're excited. They've got their own thing they want to say, they might missed what I said, but an introvert doesn't. They listen, they think, they analyze. So if you are like, your listeners are listening now if you're listening and you are thinking, oh, this is interesting. Oh, is this me? Then it's quite a big chance that you could be an introvert and I urge you to go and do some research and feel what you are aligned with. Like there is no right or wrong.
Amanda Watts (21m 33s):
It's what you are aligned with. And when you can understand yourself, you can create a really good business off the back of it. Because when you know thy self, you are able to help others. If you don't know yourself, how can you help other people? Yeah,
Mark Graban (21m 47s):
Yeah. Well, you know, upfront, I asked you, you know what jokingly, what's an introvert doing as a guest on a podcast? And you do a lot of this. Yeah. Someone might ask, what's an introvert doing, hosting a podcast? And not, not to pat myself on the back, but maybe introverts make better interviewers because I i i I do try to listen and, and not dominate the conversation. Not that all extroverts do that either. I think sometimes that's a mistake. Or we, we have to maybe be careful with the generalizations because I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you like just for example, my wife is a Myers Briggs extrovert at a very bar extreme. We've been married 21 years and, and we understand each other and, and, and, and, and, but I'll tell you, if we go to a party, I am always the one ready to leave before she is.
Mark Graban (22m 37s):
Yeah. Because to your your point, my coins have been drained as much as I love with friends and the people at the party, I've like, okay, that's, that's enough. And, and she's her e you know, being increasingly energized and and she doesn't want to go that do that doesn't cause great conflict, thankfully. But you know, she, she's, when it comes back to stereotypes or generalizations, she's not the type of extrovert who says everything. She thinks she's a relatively quiet extrovert.
Amanda Watts (23m 4s):
Yeah, that's right.
Mark Graban (23m 5s):
And I think that's part of how we, we, we get along so well.
Amanda Watts (23m 8s):
Yeah. And that's amazing and, and really shows that it's not about the, the personality, but it's about energy. They're completely different things. And, and for me, I'm a really feeling person. So, so Mark, I, I don't know whether you are a feeler or you are a thinker, but I make decisions through feeling. And, and my husband will say to me, you know, where are you going? I don't, I'm like, I don't know. I'm feeling my way through. That's, that's how I am. I dunno whether your wife is a, is a thinker or a feeler or a planner, you know, I, I have yet to create something that kind of, of describes how people make decisions. But for me, my introvert is about energy, but my personality is unique.
Amanda Watts (23m 55s):
Like, I don't think anyone could put a a thing on my personality. I doubt they could on yours and I doubt they could on your wife. So they certainly can't on my husband, you know, there, there's no box for us to go in. Energy is very different from our personality and we're all unique. Nobody is the same as you and nobody's the same as me.
Mark Graban (24m 13s):
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, Amanda has a wonderful guide. You can go and download it free through her website. I, I read through it, I'll put a link in the show notes. It's called Get Paid Your Worth, the Nine Rules for Attracting High Value Clients as an Introvert Business Owner. So this, this guidebook was designed perfectly for me. I, I, I've signed up for one of your webinars. Amanda, I am brilliant on, on your email list because I, this is right up my alley and, and, and my needs here. But before coming back to the idea of getting paid your wharf, as you mentioned earlier, there was 1, 1, 1 quote there, and I want to ask you, when thinking in terms of marketing and sales, back to listening, there's a great quote here.
Mark Graban (24m 57s):
Introverts have the listening advantage. So you're already going to be better than 50% of your competitors. And what, what what I've learned about sales is that, my gosh, listen, being a good listener, sales is not all about talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, push, push, push, push, push, tell. Tell us more about what you've learned about effective sales and marketing, that that feels right for an introvert.
Amanda Watts (25m 21s):
So the thing that, and and this is not a, a statistic based in data, by the way. It's, it's, it's a made up one. But I reckon that 99% of the world, when someone listens to them, they feel heard. I know that sounds such a weird sentence, but when someone listens to them, they feel heard. And when you are felt heard, you actually feel like that person cares. And when someone cares, you trust them. You trust that they actually are going to be there for you.
Amanda Watts (26m 1s):
They, they care about an outcome. They, they see you as an individual. And the great thing about having the introvert superpower of listening is when you listen to the person in front of you tell you their fears and their frustrations and their pains, and you come back to them and you say, I hear you and I believe that I can help you. They will trust that sentence because you have been actively listening and they feel heard. So you automatically build trust. The other things that, that's one thing, the other thing that's really important about listening is you can't overcome a problem if you don't know what that problem is.
Amanda Watts (26m 48s):
And if you listen for the real problem, the problem behind the problem, the, the cause of that problem, you can then go, do you know what you think you have a sales problem, but actually you've got a team problem, or you think you've got a team problem, but you've actually got a profit problem. And then you can turn around and go, do you know what? I don't think I'm the right person for you, or I am the right person for you. And that can come from integrity, from the real understanding that I've listened, I've heard, and I can help or I can't help. And as an introvert, we often hear the, the bid underneath because we are not thinking in our mind, oh, I can sell, I can sell.
Amanda Watts (27m 30s):
Oh yeah, that works. I can sell them this. That's not what's going through our mind. What's going through our mind actually is, you know what? I get you, I I I understand that I'm listening, I'm hearing it. Yeah. And that's why we're better than 50% at sales. Now, some introverts might not listen, but I'm just saying 50% of the world out there doesn't listen and doesn't care. I, I'm terrible at sales, but I'm not terrible at helping people. Yeah. And that's why I have a good business. Yeah, makes sense.
Mark Graban (28m 1s):
That makes a lot of sense. And when yeah, that listening helps you understand the problem. And I, I'm, I'm reminded of one, one of the books by the American author, Daniel Pink, about sales. It's something like we're, gosh, let me look up the exact title To Sell is Human.
Amanda Watts (28m 24s):
Mark Graban (28m 24s):
And Dan's book, his books are brilliant. You know, he, he sort of turns helps. I, I think it was helpful to an introvert where we have the stereotype of sales as being an obnoxiously extroverted activity. And and how often do you hear people say, especially professionals, consultants, others, like, I don't wanna be salesy. Like what, what, what, what we could listen and that what does that mean? What bothers you about being quote unquote salesy? But I think that what, what, what people mean is I don't want to be pushy. I don't want be, do you know that, you know, but Dan Pink helps point out that that selling is really just helping. It's good problem solving.
Mark Graban (29m 6s):
And I think that feels more comfortable, let's say to an engineer, yeah, you don't wanna sell, but you wanna help people. Well, yeah. So you listen, you understand the problem. And then maybe even in the point of a sales cycle where people have their objections, being able to listen and really hear the objection, I think allows you then to continue that sales conversation more
Amanda Watts (29m 29s):
Effect. And, and I hundred percent, a hundred percent agree with that. And I have a saying, which is relationships first and sales second. So I never go into a conversation with anyone going, I must sell to you. And actually I've tipped it all on its head because I hate sales so much that I send through all the price, all the details beforehand, and then we get on a call and I answer any questions they might have. So I try not to even have sales calls. I tend to send everything through. So they've got, they're well armed with everything. And for me, it's relationships. And when you form a relationship, when you're, when you're selling high value, not when you're selling a widget. If you're selling a widget, it's a different thing.
Amanda Watts (30m 10s):
But when you're selling high value services, you have to have a relationship with that person before they buy from you. And then throughout the buying process, and then the delivery process and the referral process. And without those relationships, without, you know, as, as Daniel Pink says, to, to sell is, to be human without human connection. If you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, what do we want? We want air and water and food and connection. That's what we want. That's right At the bottom is we want connection. So if you don't get connection from someone, they're not gonna buy from you. Yeah. I think a really good example is, I had a gentleman, an accountant buy from me last week, and I don't even think buy from me is an I sentence, but I had a gentleman join me last week and he, he spoke to me and he spoke to two other people, but prior to that, he'd sent me a message saying he was going on holiday, couldn't find a space in my diary.
Amanda Watts (31m 6s):
And I thought, you know what? I, I'll put in some time. I spoke to him at seven o'clock on a Friday night for one. Many people wouldn't do that. And then secondly, I, I listened to him and I was like, I want to help you if you want my help, you know, and it wasn't, I want to sell to you. It's like, I really want to help you. I can help you. And that's how I got the gig, as, as they say, I got the gig. Because literally it was about me helping, not about me selling.
Mark Graban (31m 33s):
Yeah. Well, and that, that comes through in, in the ebook, Amanda, the another quote that I just pulled out here, and, and, and this articulates what you're already saying here, the reason I've written this guide for you is that you do not have, so you do not have to make the same mistakes I have made. So for one, thank you for that helping orientation then, you know, and then secondly, I'm like, oh, my Amanda is absolutely a perfect guest for this podcast. Because I mean, there, there's one level of, of trying to help listeners not repeat the same mistake. But then I think, you know, there's another level where, you know, guests like you, being willing to share mistakes sets an example that I think helps others in a different way, even if they're not an introvert, even if they don't have the exact same problem that you have, that, that's still very, very helpful.
Mark Graban (32m 23s):
So thank you.
Amanda Watts (32m 24s):
Oh, thank you. And I, I, I've, I'm so grateful to be able to be on the podcast because my, my thing is I want to help as many people as possible. Some people will pay me, some people will, you know, not. And my, my coach has just been in a terrible, terrible car accident over the weekend and he's, he's, I dunno if he's walked away from it, he's broken ribs. But when I saw it on Facebook, he posted it on Facebook and posted his car on Facebook, and all I could thought think about was like, oh my gosh, if this man disappeared off the face of the earth, like he would leave behind so many broken people who rely on him. And I thought, oh my gosh, that's what I do.
Amanda Watts (33m 6s):
I like, if I disappeared, I, I do videos every day. I come on these podcasts. I'd leave behind people that I'm halfway through helping. And I think that even if you could help one or two people and do marketing and get on podcasts like this, you don't know the ripple effect. And we all have to try and push ourselves outside of our comfort zone so we can have a bigger ripple effect and make a bigger impact. But, but seeing my coach, it was like a massive wake-up call of my gosh, there are millions of people that watch him. And it would be awful if, if anything happened to him where he wasn't able to walk away from the accident. Yeah. Unfortunately, he was, it's, it's a happy story, not a sad
Mark Graban (33m 45s):
Story. Okay, well if if he ends up listening to this, I, I hope for continued recovery and Yeah,
Amanda Watts (33m 51s):
Yeah. He'll be good. He'll be good. He's full of positivity. Even my daughter was, his name's Tacky Moore, and my daughter turned around and said, GE like tacky, he's got neck brace on, and he's got there with a big smile on his face. And she's like, he's always smiling, he's always happy. And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's what the world needs is happy people. They don't need his misery, they need his happiness. And even at the end of the day, in the middle of a, a car accident, he's happy as anything. It's amazing. Absolutely amazing. Yeah.
Mark Graban (34m 17s):
Well, and, and well, and that's great. And Amanda, you know, as, as an introvert, I mean, you know, from the conversation here today, whether people are just listening or whether they're watching, I mean, you know, it goes to show introverts are not, you know, gloomy people sitting in the dark. You, like you said, you know, you, it's a, there's, there's also a matter of personality and, and thank you for bringing all the energy that you have to this, this conversation. So I wanna remind everybody again, Amanda C. Watts, I do recommend her, her, her guidebook get paid your worth benign rules for attracting high value clients as an introvert business owner. Maybe you know, a final question, Amanda, you had mentioned earlier this, this idea of, you know, the problem of not charging what you're worth and, and the ebook, you, I I think the phrase was trying to be trans transformational instead of transactional.
Amanda Watts (35m 10s):
Mark Graban (35m 11s):
I fall into the trap sometimes, like, people of charging for time. What, what, what one tip I realize, you know, we, we, I'm asking you a question that, that maybe merit's a longer answer, but what, what's one tip that would help bring somebody along in a direction of being able to charge their worth?
Amanda Watts (35m 27s):
Yeah, a hundred percent. So there, there's a, an exercise I get my clients to do and I urge your listeners to do it. So when we sell something that's transformational, not transactional, we have to package up a service that offers a full and remarkable solution. And when you create this package, you have to make sure that it supports every single stage of an ideal client's journey. You can't just do a little bit and help someone a little bit, because then that's not high value. That's like a little bit of, of something. Okay?
Amanda Watts (36m 7s):
So the first thing, it's a two step process I want you to do. The first thing is I want you to map out your journey, going to buy a cup of coffee from Starbucks. So from the moment that you open the door to you walk to the counter, to you looking at the menu, I want you to map out that journey. And I don't want you to miss any of it, whether it is stand in a queue, order food, decide what kind of coffee, I want you to map it out. There should be about 15 different points for that journey to buy that cup of coffee. When you've done that, you've kind of done an exercise that enables you to really see step by step the journey that you take.
Amanda Watts (36m 48s):
I then want you to apply that to your business. So from the moment someone has a sales conversation with you all the way through to getting a, a absolute transformation for working with you. So this is more for service based businesses, but transformation for working with you. What are the 15, 20, 100 steps that they have to go to? And when you've mapped that out, then choose three key milestones that you take someone on. And when if, if people download my book, they'll see I've got three milestones and under each milestone I've got three strategies and I've taken everything, the entire journey, my entrepreneurial journey, I've taken and distilled it down into this methodology.
Amanda Watts (37m 30s):
And if you want to charge your worth, you have to supply a full and remarkable solution. And you're not gonna have that full and remarkable solution if you don't know the journey that you take people off. So first of all, do the Starbucks and secondly, do the journey for you and distill it. And if you do struggle with that, then I can help. Cuz that's my expertise and that's what I help people do. So, yeah,
Mark Graban (37m 51s):
Yeah, no, that's a great idea For me, it's funny, the journey, even if I'm walking toward the Starbucks, is usually pull up the app order on the app, not because I don't want, people might think, oh, here's this introvert doesn't wanna talk to the barista. To me it just seems more efficient.
Amanda Watts (38m 7s):
Yeah, absolutely. But that hit that great lesson. So 10 years ago when I first started teaching this, so I first started teaching it in 2013. Okay. We didn't have an app, right? So you have to do this regularly because your journey mark has changed. 10 years ago, you'd have to have walked in, but now you have the opportunity for the app. So, and I love that. And your journey is maybe different from my journey or, or my daughter's journey. She'd want the app. Like she doesn't wanna talk to anyone. She's very, very introverted. She's a, she's what we would call an anxious introvert. So it doesn't do people at all. But yeah, I think that's amazing that, that's a great example of how you have to revisit this as well to make sure your offer is good.
Mark Graban (38m 53s):
Well, thank you. And, and, and if I think through that to my own business or different businesses I'm involved in, one thought or takeaway that I have is that different customers, different clients, different people you are helping or going to want to maybe receive that help in different ways. And instead of trying to force, I guess there's this balance of saying, okay, I'm not a good fit for you versus let me offer a couple possibilities. Yeah. That could be tailored to, to somebody different, different people's style.
Amanda Watts (39m 25s):
That goes very much Apple's a great example of that. So I can buy an iMac from Apple and I can spend a thousand pounds on it, a thousand dollars on it, but I could spend up to $4,000 depending on what the bits are that I need for my full and remarkable solution. And as I mentioned, I alluded to my son earlier who does film, he has this ridiculously expensive 4,000 pounds, which is about $5,000, I think computer, which we bought him when he was 17 because he does film on it. Like, I don't need that. I, I have a more basic one. I don't need that, that power. So yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Horses for courses, as my mother would say.
Amanda Watts (40m 5s):
Mark Graban (40m 7s):
Well, we've been joined again by Amanda C. Watts. I, I, I hope this only removed one coin from your proverbial energy first.
Amanda Watts (40m 19s):
It definitely has. And I, I've, I've got a meeting in a minute and then I've got another podcast this evening and then I will
Mark Graban (40m 25s):
Relax, go and recharge. So thank you, Amanda. Everything sounds smarter, more brilliant in an English accent, but
Amanda Watts (40m 32s):
Mark Graban (40m 34s):
I hope everyone will go check out the website and the ebook. There are links in the show notes. So Amanda, again, thank you so much. Really, really enjoyed it.
Amanda Watts (40m 41s):
Thank you for having me.
Mark Graban (40m 43s):
Well, again, thanks to Amanda for being a great guest today. To learn more about her for links and more, you can look in the show notes or go online, markgraban.com/mistake204. As always, I want to thank you for listening. I hope this podcast inspires you to reflect on your own mistakes, how you can learn from them or turn them into a positive. I've had listeners tell me they started being more open and honest about mistakes in their work, and they're trying to create a workplace culture where it's safe to speak up about problems because that leads to more improvement and better business results. If you have feedback or a story to share, you can email me email@example.com. And again, our website is myfavoritemistakepodcast.com.